Major breach of security at LGW !!
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What about having a small security department whos job is to find these loopholes and activly test the security. The services do it with exercises so why not the civil world. This would prevent these lapses from entering the public domain and giving terrorists ideas.Also prevent the media from creating so much fear hype and money.
Just an idea....shoot it down if you wish
Just an idea....shoot it down if you wish
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Let's face it, security can never be 100% without the whole operation grinding to a halt. Look at the number of vehicles moving landside-airside every day.....caterers, cleaners, engineers, etc. etc. etc. To search every single toolbox, under every seat, etc. would grind an airport to a complete halt. How many hiding places are there on an average car?
Nevertheless, these guys should be prosecuted, as should the company concerned for failure to follow procedures before despatching the catering truck from base.
Nevertheless, these guys should be prosecuted, as should the company concerned for failure to follow procedures before despatching the catering truck from base.
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It is very hard for the flying public to have much faith in airport security when our premium airport still languishes under the title thief row.
Terrorists like villians are inventive and many of the problems of theiving and smuggling are pretty low tech and are not being stopped, so what chance against say an SAS trained operative.
At least this latest journalist enterprise will result in a mini tightening for a few weeks.
Terrorists like villians are inventive and many of the problems of theiving and smuggling are pretty low tech and are not being stopped, so what chance against say an SAS trained operative.
At least this latest journalist enterprise will result in a mini tightening for a few weeks.
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Retaliate!
I'm a great believer in level playing fields. Why don't 2 or 3 of us get together and visit the News of the World's printing yard at Wopping, bribe a driver into smuggling us into the plant, and cause some form of major disruption and security breech? We should also take photos and have the story printed off in some of our own company journals or passenger magazines.
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This is a gap in security that pilots have known about for years. We should be pleased it has been brought to public notice, regardless of the motives of the driver and journalist, because that's the only way it will be put right.
To those who say this sort of breach is unlikely to happen for real because it requires the assistance of a passholder who has been vetted, how do you explain the large number of illegal immigrants who were recently found to be working airside at Heathrow and Gatwick? Had they been vetted? Don't confuse the cursory checks carried out on airport employees, including pilots, with serious security vetting.
It's irresponsible to say we should keep quiet about these failings to avoid alarming the public. They'd be more alarmed if real guns or bombs had been put on board with fatal results. If the BAA and others are not forced to answer for their neglect they won't put matters right.
Next time you're frisked at check-in, in full view of the passengers (shoes off to check for explosives etc), remember that the people responsible for it have been shown up for the fools they are. And smile.
To those who say this sort of breach is unlikely to happen for real because it requires the assistance of a passholder who has been vetted, how do you explain the large number of illegal immigrants who were recently found to be working airside at Heathrow and Gatwick? Had they been vetted? Don't confuse the cursory checks carried out on airport employees, including pilots, with serious security vetting.
It's irresponsible to say we should keep quiet about these failings to avoid alarming the public. They'd be more alarmed if real guns or bombs had been put on board with fatal results. If the BAA and others are not forced to answer for their neglect they won't put matters right.
Next time you're frisked at check-in, in full view of the passengers (shoes off to check for explosives etc), remember that the people responsible for it have been shown up for the fools they are. And smile.
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Do companies with responsibility for airport security employ their own independant people to test that security? In the computer industry it's normal to have one team of people writing code and a seperate team of people testing it and identifying bugs in that code. The security breaches these journalists keep finding seem blindingly obvious.
Autorise a L'atterrissage
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carrying on cwatters thought....
and no one ever seems to be held to account for these breaches.
no wonder less people fly in these conditions, unable to trust those responsible for security.
The airlines could help their own businesses traffic volumes, ensure profits and also job security for their employees if they did but MAKE the airport management do their job properly.
and no one ever seems to be held to account for these breaches.
no wonder less people fly in these conditions, unable to trust those responsible for security.
The airlines could help their own businesses traffic volumes, ensure profits and also job security for their employees if they did but MAKE the airport management do their job properly.
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All well and good to hang the messenger, but how does that solve the problems this escapade has publicly revealed?
Are the problems solvable? Some of them, maybe? If not, let's just resume our nap.
It's all right, Jack. Not to worry.
Are the problems solvable? Some of them, maybe? If not, let's just resume our nap.
It's all right, Jack. Not to worry.
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So the driver didn't secure the seal on his wagon before he left the factory. On site security should have checked this but didn't - if they had the situation wouldn't have arisen at all and there would be no story.
If the airport security had checked the wagon, as customs do for illegal immigrants, then the reporter would have been detected.
I am sure that both the driver and the reporter would have been arrested and prosecuted and probably sacked if they had been discovered.
The driver surely realised the consequences if he had been discovered and was prepared to take the risk to highlight the lack of security.
As others have said, don't shoot the messenger
If the airport security had checked the wagon, as customs do for illegal immigrants, then the reporter would have been detected.
I am sure that both the driver and the reporter would have been arrested and prosecuted and probably sacked if they had been discovered.
The driver surely realised the consequences if he had been discovered and was prepared to take the risk to highlight the lack of security.
As others have said, don't shoot the messenger
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once again we see the papers making a huge scoop about airport security,
What people who read this seem to forget or more likely don't realise is that the only people who will be affected by these stories are the people who have a right to be on any airport in the first place and already hold airside passes.
We are the people who the security personnel seem to tighten up on by more rigorous searches,more constraints and generally more hassle and attitude.But we already have been investigated by virtue we have airside passes of which have been issued by the same security section itself.
When was the last time you saw a passenger frisked all the way up and down and generally made to wait to enter the departure lounge,all the have to do is buy a ticket and show there passport BUT THEN THEY PAY FOR THIS PRIVELIGE and we dont want to upset the travelling public do we?
This being the case what is the point of the airside pass?
Security in this country has a long way to go before it becomes professional and in most peoples opinion could start by concentrating on the harder issues instead of the soft touch and should be controlled by an external agency/dept.
Consistancy would also help to achieve this maybe but something should be done but will it?
What people who read this seem to forget or more likely don't realise is that the only people who will be affected by these stories are the people who have a right to be on any airport in the first place and already hold airside passes.
We are the people who the security personnel seem to tighten up on by more rigorous searches,more constraints and generally more hassle and attitude.But we already have been investigated by virtue we have airside passes of which have been issued by the same security section itself.
When was the last time you saw a passenger frisked all the way up and down and generally made to wait to enter the departure lounge,all the have to do is buy a ticket and show there passport BUT THEN THEY PAY FOR THIS PRIVELIGE and we dont want to upset the travelling public do we?
This being the case what is the point of the airside pass?
Security in this country has a long way to go before it becomes professional and in most peoples opinion could start by concentrating on the harder issues instead of the soft touch and should be controlled by an external agency/dept.
Consistancy would also help to achieve this maybe but something should be done but will it?
My view on this one, as on all "Bloody journos in security outrage" threads, is that it is very silly to get furious that journalists have found the security people out. The shocking thing is that the security failure existed. The newsman didn't create it - the authority responsible for security did that. Far better that journalists find the loophole than that terrorists do - at least as long as you can believe that the Control Authority will close it once their failure is detected. We'd all like to believe that!
But if you have a culture of covering up faults, which is what you get if you blame the messenger, it is not likely that failure will be detected or corrected until the wings fall off. What would we think of an airline that covered up faults in maintenance/flight ops/training...until a crash occurred? Why shouldn't CRM principles (openness to criticism, no-blame culture etc..) also apply to security? After all, the basic idea that being open to criticism and capable of admitting your mistakes improves performance underlies amongst other things parliamentary democracy, "accountability" etc. Most security tasks outside the province of the Police are conducted by private security firms, and a company has only one real responsibility to its shareholders - to maximise profit. If you decide to make it by producing rubbish, and hoping that the customer does not notice - who holds you to account? With something like security, failure will only become apparent after the explosion. So - somebody has to put pressure on. Secrecy is a dangerous and addictive drug.
But if you have a culture of covering up faults, which is what you get if you blame the messenger, it is not likely that failure will be detected or corrected until the wings fall off. What would we think of an airline that covered up faults in maintenance/flight ops/training...until a crash occurred? Why shouldn't CRM principles (openness to criticism, no-blame culture etc..) also apply to security? After all, the basic idea that being open to criticism and capable of admitting your mistakes improves performance underlies amongst other things parliamentary democracy, "accountability" etc. Most security tasks outside the province of the Police are conducted by private security firms, and a company has only one real responsibility to its shareholders - to maximise profit. If you decide to make it by producing rubbish, and hoping that the customer does not notice - who holds you to account? With something like security, failure will only become apparent after the explosion. So - somebody has to put pressure on. Secrecy is a dangerous and addictive drug.
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When was the last time you saw a passenger frisked all the way up and down and generally made to wait to enter the departure lounge
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When I first read this story I wondered if the driver actually checked to see if this guy was a journo or just took his word for it.
Imagine if he really was a terrorist pretending to be a journo.
Now THAT frightens me.
Of course, the whole problem with security is 'how tough do you make it',
After all you can make it as tight as possible but then pax would need to checj much earlier to go through the myriad security checks and how would the airports cope with all the additional people?
And who checks the security? It only takes ONE lapse, ONE bribe, ONE breach and it's bye-bye to a lovely shiny aircraft.
--
Gary.
Imagine if he really was a terrorist pretending to be a journo.
Now THAT frightens me.
Of course, the whole problem with security is 'how tough do you make it',
After all you can make it as tight as possible but then pax would need to checj much earlier to go through the myriad security checks and how would the airports cope with all the additional people?
And who checks the security? It only takes ONE lapse, ONE bribe, ONE breach and it's bye-bye to a lovely shiny aircraft.
--
Gary.
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It always comes back to the same thing doesn't it??? 'He's (Customs, Police, Immigartion) not being searched why should I be.' As I recall of few years ago, The same News Of the World found that you could forge references and other documents used to 'vet' aiport staff. The Control Authorities, Police, Customs and Immigaration have far higher level of checks done on them...I don't recall the NoW blasting out the headline, 'Police officer has criminal record', do you?
So when are you going to face facts, the threat does not come from Police etc. The threat doesn't come from a driver who rings the NOW and then sneeks in with a jurno in the back. But it does highlight a breach. The BAA can't garentee 100% security, and are on the whole releuctant to admit there is a problem. The way foreward is perhaps to admit that they cannot give 100% protection, and maybe start a reward scheme for staff who point out flaws in the security system. Think about it, BAA would know first and be able to tighten things up, and the fincial insentive to go running to the papers would be removed.
So when are you going to face facts, the threat does not come from Police etc. The threat doesn't come from a driver who rings the NOW and then sneeks in with a jurno in the back. But it does highlight a breach. The BAA can't garentee 100% security, and are on the whole releuctant to admit there is a problem. The way foreward is perhaps to admit that they cannot give 100% protection, and maybe start a reward scheme for staff who point out flaws in the security system. Think about it, BAA would know first and be able to tighten things up, and the fincial insentive to go running to the papers would be removed.
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bjcc, Anyone can be tempted by a bribe, Just because someone is Police or customs it does not make them immune.
My local police station was recently raided by CIB because a bunch of detectives was found to be accepting bribes from organised crime.
The problem is that they are heavily vetted at time of application but NEVER again after that.
--
Gary.
My local police station was recently raided by CIB because a bunch of detectives was found to be accepting bribes from organised crime.
The problem is that they are heavily vetted at time of application but NEVER again after that.
--
Gary.
Airport Security
At last somebody else agrees with me, well done and many thanks `ASFKAP`for your posting of 12 March.
I say yet again, Security is only as strong as the weakest link, and while HM Customs, Police and others are immune from checks when going air side, there will always be a potential loophole.
I have no problem with and fully accept that as a passenger I am liable for security checking when I go airside, but lets have one rule for us all. Once we start to make concessions and excuse certain personnel from security checking, we immediately reduce and water down the effect of those checks.
On the immediate subject of the EGKK incident, my sixpenny worth is, The driver and the reporter did one way or the other, expose a loophole in the lax security at Gatwick. That said, I now hope they do have the book thrown at them and are considered and treated as terrorist suspects.
I say yet again, Security is only as strong as the weakest link, and while HM Customs, Police and others are immune from checks when going air side, there will always be a potential loophole.
I have no problem with and fully accept that as a passenger I am liable for security checking when I go airside, but lets have one rule for us all. Once we start to make concessions and excuse certain personnel from security checking, we immediately reduce and water down the effect of those checks.
On the immediate subject of the EGKK incident, my sixpenny worth is, The driver and the reporter did one way or the other, expose a loophole in the lax security at Gatwick. That said, I now hope they do have the book thrown at them and are considered and treated as terrorist suspects.
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kaikohe76
Quote:
"That said, I now hope they do have the book thrown at them and are considered and treated as terrorist suspects."
They clearly are not terrorist suspects and shouldn't be treated as such. And they won't be. Officialdom wouldn't be stupid enough to try it and if they did they would be laughed out of court.
Quote:
"That said, I now hope they do have the book thrown at them and are considered and treated as terrorist suspects."
They clearly are not terrorist suspects and shouldn't be treated as such. And they won't be. Officialdom wouldn't be stupid enough to try it and if they did they would be laughed out of court.
Reply to my post
Harpy,
Thanks for your reply and I note your comments.
While I accept few of us will ever totally agree on this serious incident and I may be a little ` way out` with my suggestions as just what to do with these idiots, could I ask action `you` would suggest the authorities take then!
I do accept that, by their actions the driver and reporter exposed a large loophole in the Gatwick security, but what would have been the outcome had they been challenged and subsequently shot dead by an armed police officer on the airfield.
Thanks for your reply and I note your comments.
While I accept few of us will ever totally agree on this serious incident and I may be a little ` way out` with my suggestions as just what to do with these idiots, could I ask action `you` would suggest the authorities take then!
I do accept that, by their actions the driver and reporter exposed a large loophole in the Gatwick security, but what would have been the outcome had they been challenged and subsequently shot dead by an armed police officer on the airfield.
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Kaikohe76
They exposed a loophole that many of us knew about. There’s no doubt the airport authorities also knew but failed to tackle the problem. It’s true security has been improved in some areas and I have sympathy for the people who have to make the difficult decisions on where and how to improve it. But their persistence in harassing pilots and crews over items such as penknives while giving airside passes to illegal immigrants has damaged any confidence we might have had in them.
Now the loophole has been exposed and they are embarrassed and I dare say they would like to punish the two who exposed it. As for what action to take against the intruders: they must have broken the law so it must be possible to take them to court. But the charge would be a fairly minor one and wouldn’t discourage other reporters. The airport authorities would probably have to face the defence counsel in court and would be made to feel even more foolish than they do now. If I were in their position I think I would be searching desperately for a way to let it drop.
You ask what would have been the outcome if they had been challenged and shot by police on the airfield. I presume they would have responded to a challenge from armed police by putting their hands up and surrendering. There would be no reason for the police to shoot without first giving them a chance to explain. However any reporter in search of a good story must accept that things don’t always go to plan.
They exposed a loophole that many of us knew about. There’s no doubt the airport authorities also knew but failed to tackle the problem. It’s true security has been improved in some areas and I have sympathy for the people who have to make the difficult decisions on where and how to improve it. But their persistence in harassing pilots and crews over items such as penknives while giving airside passes to illegal immigrants has damaged any confidence we might have had in them.
Now the loophole has been exposed and they are embarrassed and I dare say they would like to punish the two who exposed it. As for what action to take against the intruders: they must have broken the law so it must be possible to take them to court. But the charge would be a fairly minor one and wouldn’t discourage other reporters. The airport authorities would probably have to face the defence counsel in court and would be made to feel even more foolish than they do now. If I were in their position I think I would be searching desperately for a way to let it drop.
You ask what would have been the outcome if they had been challenged and shot by police on the airfield. I presume they would have responded to a challenge from armed police by putting their hands up and surrendering. There would be no reason for the police to shoot without first giving them a chance to explain. However any reporter in search of a good story must accept that things don’t always go to plan.