The "In Charge"
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oscarh
I assume that you have read the report, but the bit that concerns me was the comment
Therefore both flight deck members knew that the door was faulty - this is not a 'grey area' - if the door is u/s then it must be considered an inoperative exit in accordance with the MEL.
The Captain did not have the training to assess whether the door was serviceable, so in the absence of a engineer then the door should have been assumed to be u/s and properly deferred in the aircraft log.
I assume that you have read the report, but the bit that concerns me was the comment
Once all the passengers had disembarked both flight crew attempted to disarm the door and both confirmed they were unable to successfully do so
The Captain did not have the training to assess whether the door was serviceable, so in the absence of a engineer then the door should have been assumed to be u/s and properly deferred in the aircraft log.
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Jet II
I do not condone the actions of the Flight Crew here at all, and reading through the lines, nor the does the author of the CHIRP comments.
However:
<<Once all the passengers had disembarked both flight crew attempted to disarm the door and both confirmed they were unable to successfully do so>>
<<Therefore both flight deck members knew that the door was faulty - this is not a 'grey area' - if the door is u/s then it must be considered an inoperative exit in accordance with the MEL>>
Bear in mind the number of doors required is the number of EMERGENCY exits. Therefore, if it could be established that the door would operate in an emergency mode i.e. slide would inflate, then the fact it could not be disarmed might not matter.
Whatever, the MEL should should have been consulted. It is for the MEL to state what "Door U/S" means... It would almost certainly have been subdivided into which part of the door was u/s, and the appropriate limitations stated.
In practice, I cannot see how, as Flt Crew, I could make the judgement on whether it would operate. Only an engineer can state that against a Tech log entry.
NoD
I do not condone the actions of the Flight Crew here at all, and reading through the lines, nor the does the author of the CHIRP comments.
However:
<<Once all the passengers had disembarked both flight crew attempted to disarm the door and both confirmed they were unable to successfully do so>>
<<Therefore both flight deck members knew that the door was faulty - this is not a 'grey area' - if the door is u/s then it must be considered an inoperative exit in accordance with the MEL>>
Bear in mind the number of doors required is the number of EMERGENCY exits. Therefore, if it could be established that the door would operate in an emergency mode i.e. slide would inflate, then the fact it could not be disarmed might not matter.
Whatever, the MEL should should have been consulted. It is for the MEL to state what "Door U/S" means... It would almost certainly have been subdivided into which part of the door was u/s, and the appropriate limitations stated.
In practice, I cannot see how, as Flt Crew, I could make the judgement on whether it would operate. Only an engineer can state that against a Tech log entry.
NoD
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NoD
Quite agree, however the flight crew had no way of knowing whether the slide would have deployed in an emergency (as subsequent events showed it would not have!)
If the door is operating in a 'non-normal' way and there is no way the crew can confirm its serviceability then it has to be assumed to be u/s and the MEL provisions actioned accordingly.
You are right with your last statement - it is for the Engineer to assess whether the door serviceable for despatch - it is the crews responsibility to put the defects in the book.
UFGBOY - Go to Chirp and click on Feedback 65
Therefore, if it could be established that the door would operate in an emergency mode i.e. slide would inflate, then the fact it could not be disarmed might not matter.
If the door is operating in a 'non-normal' way and there is no way the crew can confirm its serviceability then it has to be assumed to be u/s and the MEL provisions actioned accordingly.
You are right with your last statement - it is for the Engineer to assess whether the door serviceable for despatch - it is the crews responsibility to put the defects in the book.
UFGBOY - Go to Chirp and click on Feedback 65
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Back to the original subject...
We have only ourselves to blame if the CSD's or whatever are left with the impression that they are in command. In the past I have seen captains fail to give their cabin staff the support they deserve when it comes to pax problems. The case was quoted of the flight deck leaving the cabin to deal with a large number of delayed pax with the casual comment "See you in the Hotel then!"
Being a Captain involves a lot more than wearing four rings. It means demonstrating your responsibility consistently and not just when it suits you.
Respect is earned. If you haven't received the level you think is appropriate, first consider where you or your colleagues have gone wrong.
Then kick a***!
We have only ourselves to blame if the CSD's or whatever are left with the impression that they are in command. In the past I have seen captains fail to give their cabin staff the support they deserve when it comes to pax problems. The case was quoted of the flight deck leaving the cabin to deal with a large number of delayed pax with the casual comment "See you in the Hotel then!"
Being a Captain involves a lot more than wearing four rings. It means demonstrating your responsibility consistently and not just when it suits you.
Respect is earned. If you haven't received the level you think is appropriate, first consider where you or your colleagues have gone wrong.
Then kick a***!
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Too true Lou
I am always amazed when I see flight deck crew getting off before all the pax are unloaded.
I would have thought that the Captain should be the last off - bit like on a sinking ship.
I am always amazed when I see flight deck crew getting off before all the pax are unloaded.
I would have thought that the Captain should be the last off - bit like on a sinking ship.
ex-Tanker
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Misnomer
Seems to me that naming the Purser "In Charge" is inviting misinterpretation! Maitre or Purser conveys the point. On the subject does your airline call the Captain, the Captain or Commander?
Uncle Pete
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They are also known as "Galley Admirals".
Yes, I've paxed with BA and seen the flight-deck leave before us, APU still runnning, hot-footing it to their segregated bus, 'cos in those days they went to the Queen's Building and the cabin crew somewhere on Northside.
Yes, there is a lot more to commanding than ruuning around with four stripes up as anyone doing the job properly will tell you. You earn respect and loyalty and it must be reciprocated. When you reach that stage you hopefully have a cohesive team and you lead it from the front.
Tha't my bit for now as I'm leading a mission to the pub.
MP
Yes, I've paxed with BA and seen the flight-deck leave before us, APU still runnning, hot-footing it to their segregated bus, 'cos in those days they went to the Queen's Building and the cabin crew somewhere on Northside.
Yes, there is a lot more to commanding than ruuning around with four stripes up as anyone doing the job properly will tell you. You earn respect and loyalty and it must be reciprocated. When you reach that stage you hopefully have a cohesive team and you lead it from the front.
Tha't my bit for now as I'm leading a mission to the pub.
MP
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Lou scannon - I like a lot of what you say generally and in this case you've hit the nail on the head. I was ALWAYS the LAST off the aircraft - made sure all pax looked after and cabin crew off also. When it comes down to explaining chain of command to the CSD/purser I have NEVER had a problem there either. If they start being a bit arsy then I tell them straight, adding at the same time that they always have my FULL support and back-up with any problems they may encounter during the flight, and the first officers full support and back-up. Things have always worked smoothly thereafter.... It's not a big deal, just don't be afraid of the PC brigade and their "everyone is equal" claptrap.
For the record I have just left BA, where most of this PC rubbish happens and am now with an overseas airline that very definately teaches the correct chain of command to all CC. Very refreshing indeed.
For the record I have just left BA, where most of this PC rubbish happens and am now with an overseas airline that very definately teaches the correct chain of command to all CC. Very refreshing indeed.
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Dear White Knight,
This whole episode stems from a misinterpreted aricle in CHIRP.
A member of flight crew mistook the term 'In Charge' and also thought the report had been filed by someone within BA.
Some UK airlines refer to their SCCMs as 'In Charge CC Member' or the 'In Charge'.
These mistakes have taken on a life all of their own and have been debated ad nauseam by the flight crew community in places like the ba council forum and all on the basis of a bad premise.
Why, the whinges and moans within the council forum have even led to panicky messages by safety and security staff on the crewlink.
No one within BA flying staff is in doubt as to the chain of command.
All commanders are captains, whereas not all captain are commanders, wouldn't you agree.
Good luck with your newfound, overseas employers. No doubt I'll see you in a sleazy bar somewhere around the world, happily chatting to some of the arsy people you describe...
This whole episode stems from a misinterpreted aricle in CHIRP.
A member of flight crew mistook the term 'In Charge' and also thought the report had been filed by someone within BA.
Some UK airlines refer to their SCCMs as 'In Charge CC Member' or the 'In Charge'.
These mistakes have taken on a life all of their own and have been debated ad nauseam by the flight crew community in places like the ba council forum and all on the basis of a bad premise.
Why, the whinges and moans within the council forum have even led to panicky messages by safety and security staff on the crewlink.
No one within BA flying staff is in doubt as to the chain of command.
All commanders are captains, whereas not all captain are commanders, wouldn't you agree.
Good luck with your newfound, overseas employers. No doubt I'll see you in a sleazy bar somewhere around the world, happily chatting to some of the arsy people you describe...
Moderator
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This is a recurring topic on PPRuNe flight deck forums.
Since what I read here about the unclear chain of command is totally different to my experience at work, I posted an informal poll in the cabin crew forum to find out how this is percieved by FAs from various continents and companies.
Poll results here.
Since what I read here about the unclear chain of command is totally different to my experience at work, I posted an informal poll in the cabin crew forum to find out how this is percieved by FAs from various continents and companies.
Poll results here.
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One of the best lines I heard on this subject.
Purser: CA what would you like to be if you could come back
reincarnated?
CA: A purser.
Purser: Why?
CA: Because for one time in my life I really want to know what
it is like to command an aircraft.
Purser: It sucks.
Purser: CA what would you like to be if you could come back
reincarnated?
CA: A purser.
Purser: Why?
CA: Because for one time in my life I really want to know what
it is like to command an aircraft.
Purser: It sucks.
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The poll results are interesting only 50% being clear that the Captain is King.This problem does exisit in Big Airways but it is a minority of militants.The last time I heard of an incident the skipper offloaded the cabin crew member and filed an ASR.
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Another interesting aspect of the situation is where the regular CC pay no attention to the cabin Chief...because of his/her nationality....or any other reason.
Recall years ago enroute DHA-RUH and scheduled to CDG, the cabin Chief (from Morocco, and very competent) complained that two CC would not follow her instructions.
Had 'em offloaded at RUH and replaced....they were summarily dismissed a few days later.
Not wise to challange the Chief.
Recall years ago enroute DHA-RUH and scheduled to CDG, the cabin Chief (from Morocco, and very competent) complained that two CC would not follow her instructions.
Had 'em offloaded at RUH and replaced....they were summarily dismissed a few days later.
Not wise to challange the Chief.
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This problem seems inflight management based.they are putting unsafe ideas in the flight attendents minds .I have heard capt's ask the incharge some safety related questions (he never knows hit him)also ask all the other cabin crew to come in with their torches ,check the torches and ask them some questions in the presence of the incharge if the answers are not satisfactory debrief the incharge and/or offload the crew.May sound stern but it is a good idea to get the get the chain of command right before the flight.
ex-Tanker
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Establish a relationship
In these days of short turn rounds and crew changes during the day's work, what I am about to propose is getting more and more difficult but is well worth the effort:
Try meeting the CC and the whole crew before flight - preferably during their briefing. Introduce yourself and the FO. Just have a short friendly chat - point out any special points for the day (turbulence/wx - security items - new procedures - pax related items) and ask if they have any points to make. If they are running through an evac/emer briefing, the Capt/FO input can be very interesting. The Capt/FO often learn something too.
When you get on board, everybody has an idea who and how you are and you have an idea how the cabin crew are. This makes a huge difference not only in normal ops but also in an emergency situation.
Too often the extent of the contact when first meeting the CC is a question "What do you drink, water or coffee?" and not much of substance.
Try meeting the CC and the whole crew before flight - preferably during their briefing. Introduce yourself and the FO. Just have a short friendly chat - point out any special points for the day (turbulence/wx - security items - new procedures - pax related items) and ask if they have any points to make. If they are running through an evac/emer briefing, the Capt/FO input can be very interesting. The Capt/FO often learn something too.
When you get on board, everybody has an idea who and how you are and you have an idea how the cabin crew are. This makes a huge difference not only in normal ops but also in an emergency situation.
Too often the extent of the contact when first meeting the CC is a question "What do you drink, water or coffee?" and not much of substance.
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Well, I would never leave an aircraft at the end of duty until the rest of the crew were all done, the sole exception being if I have another flight to operate that is in danger of delay if I dawdle, in which case I bid my farewells and hit the ground running.
These days though, a more common scenario is to walk out of the flight deck saying 'Everyone ready? Lets go', to see an empty cabin (divider gently flapping in the breeze, equivalent to a piece of tumbleweed blowing through a ghost town) because the cabin crew legged it 5 milliseconds after the final passenger.
CPB
These days though, a more common scenario is to walk out of the flight deck saying 'Everyone ready? Lets go', to see an empty cabin (divider gently flapping in the breeze, equivalent to a piece of tumbleweed blowing through a ghost town) because the cabin crew legged it 5 milliseconds after the final passenger.
CPB
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Just after I got my command on a large a/c with lots of engines go great distances, I was informed by an i/c fa that "the trouble is that captains think they have more authority than they have and i/c's are reluctant to use the command that they have been given."
I initially thought that I was being wound up however after further discussion I found that he believed that what he was saying was true. This chap was a CC trainer.
Methinks we may have lost the plot.
I initially thought that I was being wound up however after further discussion I found that he believed that what he was saying was true. This chap was a CC trainer.
Methinks we may have lost the plot.
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The plot generally was lost in the UK a long time ago - especially in Big Airways. You have to understand that it's UNFAIR for a pilot to have more authority than a CC, hence the fact that CC trainers like to push the idea with their trainees that the "in charge" is the number one on the aircraft. Management of course go along with this lovey dovey PC nonsense, including flight ops managers. Come on people - get some back bone here and deal with these fools......
I'd really like to see the CSD land a crippled aeroplane safely, having used their years of experience and training to cope with that one really bad hair day.
I'd really like to see the CSD land a crippled aeroplane safely, having used their years of experience and training to cope with that one really bad hair day.
Why is it that everyone seems to forget: At 30,000 ft everybody's lives are totally in the hands of the drivers up the front.
Em! That makes them the bosses in anybody's book surely.
Some F.A's should ponder on this at 30west when wondering if they are senior to the F/O
Em! That makes them the bosses in anybody's book surely.
Some F.A's should ponder on this at 30west when wondering if they are senior to the F/O