airlines and morale
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411A
The problem is, with the way many rostering petterns seem to be developing, that planning your rest is just about impossible.
V. early flight one day, v.early standby the next, suddenly change to a night trip crewing in at the same time as your body says it's time for bed.
Why should anyone have to do an exam containing all that stuff about circadian rhythms if the planners don't take a blind bit of notice?
All company planning staff (schedule writers, rostering/crewing staff and Ops staff) should have to pass the Human Performance exam before getting the job.
The problem is, with the way many rostering petterns seem to be developing, that planning your rest is just about impossible.
V. early flight one day, v.early standby the next, suddenly change to a night trip crewing in at the same time as your body says it's time for bed.
Why should anyone have to do an exam containing all that stuff about circadian rhythms if the planners don't take a blind bit of notice?
All company planning staff (schedule writers, rostering/crewing staff and Ops staff) should have to pass the Human Performance exam before getting the job.
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Look 411a,
Early start, out of bed at 0430
Not technically early start, but still out of bed at 0430
Early start, out of bed approx 0400
Not technically early start, but still out of bed at 0430
So far, No probs. Body has now adjusted to 0400 wakeup, by making me sleepy by 1900-2000 ish the previous evening. Solution? I go to sleep, and wake up 8 hours later feeling fine.
Here come the problem:
Next day: Report 1900, Fly till 0200.
Course my body will wake at 0400, so by report time I've been awake for 15 hours (it being scientifically accepted that you won't sleep reliably when you aren't tired). By 1 hour into the duty the body is saying 'Pitbull, its time for sleep'. By the end, its saying 'WTF pitbull, you should have been asleep 6 hours ago'.
Whole operation conducted within 2 adjacent time zones.
Are you SERIOUSLY trying to say that circadian cycles are not an issue?
As per usual, you assume that any comment by a current pilot must be baseless whining.
Let me spell it out:
Early starts? No problem.
Late finishes? No problem.
Chopping and changing? Big problem.
CPB
Early start, out of bed at 0430
Not technically early start, but still out of bed at 0430
Early start, out of bed approx 0400
Not technically early start, but still out of bed at 0430
So far, No probs. Body has now adjusted to 0400 wakeup, by making me sleepy by 1900-2000 ish the previous evening. Solution? I go to sleep, and wake up 8 hours later feeling fine.
Here come the problem:
Next day: Report 1900, Fly till 0200.
Course my body will wake at 0400, so by report time I've been awake for 15 hours (it being scientifically accepted that you won't sleep reliably when you aren't tired). By 1 hour into the duty the body is saying 'Pitbull, its time for sleep'. By the end, its saying 'WTF pitbull, you should have been asleep 6 hours ago'.
Whole operation conducted within 2 adjacent time zones.
Are you SERIOUSLY trying to say that circadian cycles are not an issue?
As per usual, you assume that any comment by a current pilot must be baseless whining.
Let me spell it out:
Early starts? No problem.
Late finishes? No problem.
Chopping and changing? Big problem.
CPB
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I thought 'silly season' for journalists was a tad later in the year.
Bored with the Iraq situation perhaps ? Short of items to fill up the columns ? Yes, this is a serious issue but come on, let's see it reported in a sensible fashion.
Power napping has long been a known phenomenon amongst flight crew - particularly long-haul. Maybe I am missing the point, but I have yet to see or hear of a safety compromise due to this.
Bored with the Iraq situation perhaps ? Short of items to fill up the columns ? Yes, this is a serious issue but come on, let's see it reported in a sensible fashion.
Power napping has long been a known phenomenon amongst flight crew - particularly long-haul. Maybe I am missing the point, but I have yet to see or hear of a safety compromise due to this.
ex-Tanker
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Introduce the Journalists...
Could be an interesting chat if the Times (Pilots do nothing) reporter could meet the Sunday Times (Pilots are overworked and going to sleep) reporter. Preferably on late night TV, with a bunch of pilots on hand.
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I'm not qualified to comment on the article.
But this journalist did make a definite effort to get his facts right and to get his information "straight from the horses mouth" as can be seen on this thread .
No more than should be expected perhaps, but seeing how much rubbish is written about aviation as a matter of course, I'd say Mr Macaskill is to be commended for making an honest effort to bring to the general public's attention a serious but not very spectacular (from a news point of view) problem that worries many of us in civil aviation.
But this journalist did make a definite effort to get his facts right and to get his information "straight from the horses mouth" as can be seen on this thread .
No more than should be expected perhaps, but seeing how much rubbish is written about aviation as a matter of course, I'd say Mr Macaskill is to be commended for making an honest effort to bring to the general public's attention a serious but not very spectacular (from a news point of view) problem that worries many of us in civil aviation.
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411A It must be hard being so perfect. You are obviously showing your age. I have been in aviation 35 years and I can just about remember 7 day layovers!! Things have changed a lot since you were on the line. Nowadays as soon as you land somewhere,someone in your company is working overtime to get you out of that place as quickly as possible,even if it means positioning you half way around the world to save a few bucks.
The only time I ever get a 3day layover is in places like KHI and JED and that is only because it is too difficult to come in as crew and position out.
As for your suggestion that we tell crewing what we prefer. What a joke . It might have worked years ago when airlines were small and personal,but now we are just numbers and we get what the computer gives us.
The only time I ever get a 3day layover is in places like KHI and JED and that is only because it is too difficult to come in as crew and position out.
As for your suggestion that we tell crewing what we prefer. What a joke . It might have worked years ago when airlines were small and personal,but now we are just numbers and we get what the computer gives us.
I get the impression that 411A has little knowledge of European low cost operations, or European FTLs for that matter. I was at the crew immigration channel at MIA a while back. A United crew queueing behind us were amazed that we had just flown from London with 2 crew - their FTLs specified 3 crew.
IMHO, this is bigger than the current 'Pliots flying while still under the influence' issue, articles about which have appeared in several UK papers recently. I personally would feel happier flying after one drink (not that I do of course!) than flying while acutely and chronicly fatigued. I base this statement on my driving performance after long transatlantic flights having had little effective rest over the previous 22 hours (no bar involved) prior to reporting at midnight body clock time to then fly for eight or nine hours.
Twice on the long Florida returns I have been woken up by the 744's alarm one minute after the 'Pilot Action Required' EICAS message to find the other pilot being woken as well.
Another system such as the watch is a fine idea, but it is a cure of the symptom - and not the cause.
Unfortunately, the fight safety system is reactionary and people will probably have to die for this to become serious enough for someone to do something about it. IMHO, the rules are lose enough already. What we don't need is a increase in already long hours
IMHO, this is bigger than the current 'Pliots flying while still under the influence' issue, articles about which have appeared in several UK papers recently. I personally would feel happier flying after one drink (not that I do of course!) than flying while acutely and chronicly fatigued. I base this statement on my driving performance after long transatlantic flights having had little effective rest over the previous 22 hours (no bar involved) prior to reporting at midnight body clock time to then fly for eight or nine hours.
Twice on the long Florida returns I have been woken up by the 744's alarm one minute after the 'Pilot Action Required' EICAS message to find the other pilot being woken as well.
Another system such as the watch is a fine idea, but it is a cure of the symptom - and not the cause.
Unfortunately, the fight safety system is reactionary and people will probably have to die for this to become serious enough for someone to do something about it. IMHO, the rules are lose enough already. What we don't need is a increase in already long hours
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Spot on Capt PB
You have described precisely what happened to me this week.
I may only do 4 regional sectors per duty but, doing a bunch of earlies followed by a late messes with the body.
On the day of my late duty I woke up at 04:30 and never managed to get back to sleep! On the third sector of the late duty I (HP) made a mess of an approach and ended up flying a less than average visual. I was tired, but only then did I realise how tired. I was glad the next day was a day off.
Its not the total Duty Hours, its when you work them. CAP 371 does not give rostering any guidance in this area, it simply gives limits.
I may only do 4 regional sectors per duty but, doing a bunch of earlies followed by a late messes with the body.
On the day of my late duty I woke up at 04:30 and never managed to get back to sleep! On the third sector of the late duty I (HP) made a mess of an approach and ended up flying a less than average visual. I was tired, but only then did I realise how tired. I was glad the next day was a day off.
Its not the total Duty Hours, its when you work them. CAP 371 does not give rostering any guidance in this area, it simply gives limits.
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Flying 100 hours in a fortnight?????? Thats the biggest rubbish I have ever seen. It is impossible!!! Do you have ANY idea how long the duty time would be? I dont think so.
We fly an averege of 3-5 days a week between EDI and LCY. 2 shift in any day are only one time there and back, then off.
SOMEONE IS LYING!!!!!!! BIG TIME!
Our boss (Chief pilot) has said: If the pilot are to tired to operate safely all they have to do is say so and they will be taken off that duty. I has happened a couple of times.
If someone is out to damage the company by lying, then they should have a bit consideration for the rest of us who actually still happen to enjoy our job. To much damage could cause a company to go under and we would all be out of jobs.
If you are not happy then gett the f*** out. Don't make everyone else misserable with your constant complaining!
It is true that the day can be a bit long at times, but we are all within the legal duty times as well as the flight time.
It is part of the job. Aviation has always been and will always be unpredicteble.
We fly an averege of 3-5 days a week between EDI and LCY. 2 shift in any day are only one time there and back, then off.
SOMEONE IS LYING!!!!!!! BIG TIME!
Our boss (Chief pilot) has said: If the pilot are to tired to operate safely all they have to do is say so and they will be taken off that duty. I has happened a couple of times.
If someone is out to damage the company by lying, then they should have a bit consideration for the rest of us who actually still happen to enjoy our job. To much damage could cause a company to go under and we would all be out of jobs.
If you are not happy then gett the f*** out. Don't make everyone else misserable with your constant complaining!
It is true that the day can be a bit long at times, but we are all within the legal duty times as well as the flight time.
It is part of the job. Aviation has always been and will always be unpredicteble.
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Nice one Capskyboy, too many frgile egoes out there and heads up own bottom. Sure there are genuine cases in various locations but this petty whinging and untruths only serve to dilute any importance a point may have. Think before you speak and to whom you speak boys and lets get on with the job, our mortgages demand it!!!!
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Look guys....it's called Capitalism. It's the same in all other areas of commercial life, not just Aviation. Everyone I meet complains of the same thing. Ever higher workload. More stress. No more money. As Karl Marx said, in the capitalist system the rich get richer and the rest of us get screwed.
The only answer, I have found, is to work for yourself. That doesn't stop me getting screwed though...now I think about it.
It's the same old rat-race. Just different rats.
The only answer, I have found, is to work for yourself. That doesn't stop me getting screwed though...now I think about it.
It's the same old rat-race. Just different rats.
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Captskyboy, what an extraordinary outburst. We were all similarly enthusiastic as you in the first two weeks of our very first airline job. (Congratulations by the way)
I’m sure your very special chief pilot is as you say, an angel in disguise...and I’m extremely jealous.
When you have been around the business for as long as some of the pilots that have shared their dissatisfaction with the way they are treated/worked, you may have a less than rosy view of the world.
Your advice to leave if we don’t like it, tells me that you have no idea about the seniority system.
If you had spent 15 years in a company with 9000 + hrs experience and then that company had a management change and started treating you like indentured servants, would you be prepared to leave, take a massive pay cut and demotion to become an F/O, junior to a 200 hrs CPL twenty-something in a new company?
It the answer is yes, you’re a braver man/woman than I. (And with less to lose)
I’m sure your very special chief pilot is as you say, an angel in disguise...and I’m extremely jealous.
When you have been around the business for as long as some of the pilots that have shared their dissatisfaction with the way they are treated/worked, you may have a less than rosy view of the world.
Your advice to leave if we don’t like it, tells me that you have no idea about the seniority system.
If you had spent 15 years in a company with 9000 + hrs experience and then that company had a management change and started treating you like indentured servants, would you be prepared to leave, take a massive pay cut and demotion to become an F/O, junior to a 200 hrs CPL twenty-something in a new company?
It the answer is yes, you’re a braver man/woman than I. (And with less to lose)
Is there a British/Irish/JAR limitation which is equivalent to that in the US FAR 121 section? For domestic flying, we can perform flight duty up to a maximum of 30 hours (block time) in any 7 consecutive days. We must have 24 hours off during each seven day period. Because of the MD-80 accident in Little Rock (AR), even crews on reserve/standby now have a designated, solid, 8-hour "rest" period in each 24 hours. and if any domestic crew exceeds 8 hours actual block time, then the minimum 'rest' period goes from 8 to 9 hours (this can include walking thru airport, riding to and from the hotel, a quick shower and the thorough, by-the-book preflight! Unless you have a union, which might negotiate a 10 hour 'rest' period for all but a very few 'special' overnights).
Our long haul crews in a two-person cockpit are limited to 8 hours scheduled, without an extra crewmember (who knows, maybe we will have type-rated FOs soon...?).
For three-person US cockpits, I have no idea how the reg. is written for long-haul, but you should read about the exhausting nightmares for some DC-10 crews at Sun Country, DC-8 crews at Evergreen...add on an empty ferry flight across the ocean and then our FAA claims that you are no longer on flight duty. Read about which warning was on the charts for aircraft who left the tiny gap between South Yemen and Ethiopian airspace years ago.
Let's not forget, or ignore the fact that until a Connie Kallita DC-8 crashed at G'mo Bay NAS, Cuba several years ago after a very long nighttime duty period, which began in Willow Run (YIP), MI, our NTSB (investigative branch of the DOT) had NEVER claimed (or had the courage to contradict the FAA's attorneys...) that fatigue was the primary factor in any US carrier accident. The FAA was always smug about the impossibility of finding fatigue during an autopsy, and its conflicting mandate was to indirectly subsidize airlines by not increasing their operating costs.
How about fatigue rulings "over there"?
Pleasant dreams fellow crewmembers: bonne nuit, lekker slapen, schlaft gut dort druben (also bestens mit einer Jungfrau?)...
Our long haul crews in a two-person cockpit are limited to 8 hours scheduled, without an extra crewmember (who knows, maybe we will have type-rated FOs soon...?).
For three-person US cockpits, I have no idea how the reg. is written for long-haul, but you should read about the exhausting nightmares for some DC-10 crews at Sun Country, DC-8 crews at Evergreen...add on an empty ferry flight across the ocean and then our FAA claims that you are no longer on flight duty. Read about which warning was on the charts for aircraft who left the tiny gap between South Yemen and Ethiopian airspace years ago.
Let's not forget, or ignore the fact that until a Connie Kallita DC-8 crashed at G'mo Bay NAS, Cuba several years ago after a very long nighttime duty period, which began in Willow Run (YIP), MI, our NTSB (investigative branch of the DOT) had NEVER claimed (or had the courage to contradict the FAA's attorneys...) that fatigue was the primary factor in any US carrier accident. The FAA was always smug about the impossibility of finding fatigue during an autopsy, and its conflicting mandate was to indirectly subsidize airlines by not increasing their operating costs.
How about fatigue rulings "over there"?
Pleasant dreams fellow crewmembers: bonne nuit, lekker slapen, schlaft gut dort druben (also bestens mit einer Jungfrau?)...
Last edited by Ignition Override; 23rd Feb 2003 at 05:47.
Each and everyone one of you who is complaining has a choice, either carry on working in the industry or leave.
If things really are so bad and so many pilots are feeling the stress then the mass exodus would force change. As I see it this won't happen due to two factors:
1. There are very few alternative industries which offer remuneration packages as good as those enjoyed by pilots.
2. The number of pilots who are genuinely close to breaking point is far lower than this thread would have us believe.
Am I correct that most of the complaining is by the short haul pilots, and specifically the loCo pilots? Of all the complainants you possibly have greatest cause due to the higher workloads encountered when compared with the long haul guys. At least the LoCo carriers are now offering better earning capabilities than was the case 15 years ago for short haul, non BA, pilots.
Re your gripes against 'the management', it seems ironic that these managers probably viewed their managers in the same way before they ascended to their current positions. Cut some slack, it isn't until you get into their position that you will have the full info that is driving their decisions. In most cases they were pilots in a previous existance.
If things really are so bad and so many pilots are feeling the stress then the mass exodus would force change. As I see it this won't happen due to two factors:
1. There are very few alternative industries which offer remuneration packages as good as those enjoyed by pilots.
2. The number of pilots who are genuinely close to breaking point is far lower than this thread would have us believe.
Am I correct that most of the complaining is by the short haul pilots, and specifically the loCo pilots? Of all the complainants you possibly have greatest cause due to the higher workloads encountered when compared with the long haul guys. At least the LoCo carriers are now offering better earning capabilities than was the case 15 years ago for short haul, non BA, pilots.
Re your gripes against 'the management', it seems ironic that these managers probably viewed their managers in the same way before they ascended to their current positions. Cut some slack, it isn't until you get into their position that you will have the full info that is driving their decisions. In most cases they were pilots in a previous existance.
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S.N.
Once again the reasoning in response is missing the point.
The terms " less than you think close to breaking point" is a good example of this.
There is no need in this day and age for any EU worker, and especially those in a safety related enviroment, to be anywhere close to breaking point. There is very little balance between work and play for the average Joe.
Further, there is a hint that the pay is good so shut up, as you are well rewarded. Again missing the point and resurrecting the attitude that pilots will prostitute themselves for more cash. Not true, if you read ther easyjet strike thread.
A fair days work for a fair days pay is a simple request. If the work gets onerous then there should be more free time for compensation and refreshment. When things work to the limit all the time, they break, even the aeroplanes.
If we operate at reduced thrust take off to save engine life, why not apply the same philosophy to FTL's???????
Once again the reasoning in response is missing the point.
The terms " less than you think close to breaking point" is a good example of this.
There is no need in this day and age for any EU worker, and especially those in a safety related enviroment, to be anywhere close to breaking point. There is very little balance between work and play for the average Joe.
Further, there is a hint that the pay is good so shut up, as you are well rewarded. Again missing the point and resurrecting the attitude that pilots will prostitute themselves for more cash. Not true, if you read ther easyjet strike thread.
A fair days work for a fair days pay is a simple request. If the work gets onerous then there should be more free time for compensation and refreshment. When things work to the limit all the time, they break, even the aeroplanes.
If we operate at reduced thrust take off to save engine life, why not apply the same philosophy to FTL's???????
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surely not, yes the flight crews could do as you say and leave. The mass exodus would cause a change.
The pilots that stayed to reap the benefits of that exodus, would no doubt be so overcome with gratitude by the career sacrifice of the few, they would insist that the few be reinstated with full seniority and pay. Of course if that never happened, they could always “sign on”, you never know they might not lose the family home. The fact that they worked like the proverbial to get qualified without any assistance makes it all so easy to throw away. Easy come easy go eh?
Of course another way we could achieve a change is to remain employed with food on the table and a roof over the families heads and fight from within. That includes using PPRuNE to get the message across to the public who have no idea what is actually happening in the industry and how unsafe things are becoming. With responses such as yours, it appears we have a long way to go.
The fact that some of the managers were once pilots does not give them carte blanche to kick us were it hurts with impunity. There is no secret brotherhood.
The pilots that stayed to reap the benefits of that exodus, would no doubt be so overcome with gratitude by the career sacrifice of the few, they would insist that the few be reinstated with full seniority and pay. Of course if that never happened, they could always “sign on”, you never know they might not lose the family home. The fact that they worked like the proverbial to get qualified without any assistance makes it all so easy to throw away. Easy come easy go eh?
Of course another way we could achieve a change is to remain employed with food on the table and a roof over the families heads and fight from within. That includes using PPRuNE to get the message across to the public who have no idea what is actually happening in the industry and how unsafe things are becoming. With responses such as yours, it appears we have a long way to go.
The fact that some of the managers were once pilots does not give them carte blanche to kick us were it hurts with impunity. There is no secret brotherhood.
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Now if you journalists would like a European viewpoint then try Italy for instance. Come along with me and 274 other punters in my big shiny 767 as i depart at 1600 hours, fly an 11:30 sector to SE Asia, a further 2 hours on ground, followed by a 4 hour sector to an indonesian island, arriving at 1600 local time the next day.
Now all this with 2 co-pilots, ie 3 crew but,no rest facilty available other than 2 non reclining jump-seats on the flightdeck.And we can legally operate to a maximum of 24 hours duty like this with absolutely no regard to start of duty time!
Now, who would sanction such a thing, why Civilavia, Rome, Italy of course!!!
If you want a real story of ineptitude in flighttime limitations then come down & taste the wine in Italy.
P.S. well done UKCAA, don't trust these people to keep their house in order.
Now all this with 2 co-pilots, ie 3 crew but,no rest facilty available other than 2 non reclining jump-seats on the flightdeck.And we can legally operate to a maximum of 24 hours duty like this with absolutely no regard to start of duty time!
Now, who would sanction such a thing, why Civilavia, Rome, Italy of course!!!
If you want a real story of ineptitude in flighttime limitations then come down & taste the wine in Italy.
P.S. well done UKCAA, don't trust these people to keep their house in order.
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SN
Your comments to lump it or leave it! How crass/ignorant!!
Point 1
Money. It`s is not a factor regarding flight safety
Point 2
Pilots close to breaking point are few in reality. Well....yes..I agree just this once.
But:
Isn`t this thread mostly aiming about fatigue and safety?
Most pilots maybe not at breaking point, but some may be a bit uncomfortable about how far limits on scheduling allow a 2 man crew to fly over to some destinations.
I would take a 3-man transatlantic to a southern US destination anyday rather than a 2-man trip. I feel much better rested doing the descent and landing, simple as that.
Have you ever heard of the flight safety chain?
So, don`t "lump-it-or-leave-it" on those who love the job but realise that the sharper operator when the s**t hits the fan is the better one.
Your comments to lump it or leave it! How crass/ignorant!!
Point 1
Money. It`s is not a factor regarding flight safety
Point 2
Pilots close to breaking point are few in reality. Well....yes..I agree just this once.
But:
Isn`t this thread mostly aiming about fatigue and safety?
Most pilots maybe not at breaking point, but some may be a bit uncomfortable about how far limits on scheduling allow a 2 man crew to fly over to some destinations.
I would take a 3-man transatlantic to a southern US destination anyday rather than a 2-man trip. I feel much better rested doing the descent and landing, simple as that.
Have you ever heard of the flight safety chain?
So, don`t "lump-it-or-leave-it" on those who love the job but realise that the sharper operator when the s**t hits the fan is the better one.