Air Canada crew rooms searched for "pilfering"
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Air Canada crew rooms searched for "pilfering"
Source: Toronto Sun
Edited as one link incorrect.
Air Can crews' rooms scoured
Allegation of pilfering
By CP
MONTREAL --_Air Canada investigators flew to Paris recently to search the hotel rooms of flight-crew staff, sifting through wastebaskets to find cans of beer and soft drinks allegedly pilfered from planes.
Several crew members are now facing investigation and could be fired.
The investigation has outraged some flight attendants and pilots, who say the airline could have dealt with the allegations diplomatically instead of conducting searches.
"This is the first I've heard of an investigation of this magnitude," said Peter Foster, of the Air Canada Pilots Association.
Air Canada spokesman Isabelle Arthur would not explain why the investigators were sent overseas. "We consider it an internal matter," she said.
PHOTOS OF GARBAGE CANS
The theft investigation occurred just before the new year when crew members were on a layover in France.
Air Canada corporate security workers reportedly entered the hotel rooms of crew members, together with hotel security staff, after the crew had checked out.
They searched the rooms and took photographs of the contents of garbage cans.
Foster said the items allegedly stolen from the planes were a variety of "mixed beverages," such as cans of beer and soft drinks.
The airline's rules state crew members cannot take any food or beverage from the aircraft. Air Canada recently estimated its losses at as much as 9% of cabin stock each year as a result of employee pilfering.
Allegation of pilfering
By CP
MONTREAL --_Air Canada investigators flew to Paris recently to search the hotel rooms of flight-crew staff, sifting through wastebaskets to find cans of beer and soft drinks allegedly pilfered from planes.
Several crew members are now facing investigation and could be fired.
The investigation has outraged some flight attendants and pilots, who say the airline could have dealt with the allegations diplomatically instead of conducting searches.
"This is the first I've heard of an investigation of this magnitude," said Peter Foster, of the Air Canada Pilots Association.
Air Canada spokesman Isabelle Arthur would not explain why the investigators were sent overseas. "We consider it an internal matter," she said.
PHOTOS OF GARBAGE CANS
The theft investigation occurred just before the new year when crew members were on a layover in France.
Air Canada corporate security workers reportedly entered the hotel rooms of crew members, together with hotel security staff, after the crew had checked out.
They searched the rooms and took photographs of the contents of garbage cans.
Foster said the items allegedly stolen from the planes were a variety of "mixed beverages," such as cans of beer and soft drinks.
The airline's rules state crew members cannot take any food or beverage from the aircraft. Air Canada recently estimated its losses at as much as 9% of cabin stock each year as a result of employee pilfering.
Last edited by Danny; 16th Jan 2003 at 15:28.
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Apparently...some crew think it quite OK to walk off with company property, and yes that is exactly what these supplies may well be, company property.
Would you walk off from a party at someones house with a bottle of booze?....guess some would
Would you walk off from a party at someones house with a bottle of booze?....guess some would
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The airline's rules state crew members cannot take any food or beverage from the aircraft.
Very petty if you ask me. On a long haul I would estimate that included in the pax fare is an average of 2 to 3 drinks and a meal. Not all pax use up their "allowance" - I know I don't these days. So what's all the fuss about if those hard working F/As take a couple of cans each at the end of the flight. Come on Air Canada, this is simply ridiculous and yet another indication of the sad times we live in under the control of bean counters. Jeeeez!
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Interesting. How about another way of managing this?
One European Long-Haul operator allows each crew member to take two alcoholic drinks off the aircraft at the night-stop/layover destination. Result? Known quantity written off/charged to ticket price - and absolutely no pilfering. None.
Saves the cost of the garbage-can Police as well!
One European Long-Haul operator allows each crew member to take two alcoholic drinks off the aircraft at the night-stop/layover destination. Result? Known quantity written off/charged to ticket price - and absolutely no pilfering. None.
Saves the cost of the garbage-can Police as well!
Avman
taking what is not yours to take is what all the fuss is about. If management had such a lax attitude to staff stealing, a couple of cans would turn into a bottle of wine, then cognac, then some Cartier watches from the duty-free cart. I sure these individuals knew they were doing the wrong thing. Airlines take a very serious view of crew taking stores off the aircraft, and it is now less rampant as a result.
taking what is not yours to take is what all the fuss is about. If management had such a lax attitude to staff stealing, a couple of cans would turn into a bottle of wine, then cognac, then some Cartier watches from the duty-free cart. I sure these individuals knew they were doing the wrong thing. Airlines take a very serious view of crew taking stores off the aircraft, and it is now less rampant as a result.
What a sad commentary on the airline's management!
I can't begin to imagine how the people who dreamed up this violation of privacy hope to justify the expense. The case has no legs. My (minor) legal quals are in IR, and we studied just this sort of case. The company wouldn't have a hope in hell under Oz law. Who can swear that the occupant of the room was the person who put the objects into the bin for starters? What about the right to be present during a search, the right to representation during a search - it goes on and on.
Yes, I know that theft is theft, BUT there is also the concept of "innocent till proven guilty". Here we have a classic case of using a sledge hammer to crack a walnut.
Under Oz law, the right of the company to search employees without warrant ends when they leave company premises - in this case the a/c.
In my mob we can buy 2 cans of beer or a bottle of wine to take ashore. The system works because the price is right.
Its a pity that in these difficult times, management doesn't stick to running the shop and leave the dopey ideas till later.
I can't begin to imagine how the people who dreamed up this violation of privacy hope to justify the expense. The case has no legs. My (minor) legal quals are in IR, and we studied just this sort of case. The company wouldn't have a hope in hell under Oz law. Who can swear that the occupant of the room was the person who put the objects into the bin for starters? What about the right to be present during a search, the right to representation during a search - it goes on and on.
Yes, I know that theft is theft, BUT there is also the concept of "innocent till proven guilty". Here we have a classic case of using a sledge hammer to crack a walnut.
Under Oz law, the right of the company to search employees without warrant ends when they leave company premises - in this case the a/c.
In my mob we can buy 2 cans of beer or a bottle of wine to take ashore. The system works because the price is right.
Its a pity that in these difficult times, management doesn't stick to running the shop and leave the dopey ideas till later.
kellykelpie , come on now, taking Cartier watches or litre bottles of booze from the Duty Free is not the issue here. That WOULD be stealing as those items would not have been paid for to begin with. I'm referrring to the supply of cans of beer and small bottles of wine, the cost of which is incorporated in the price of the passenger's ticket. If, for instance, I drink one glass of water instead of two or three cans of beer - then the F/A is welcome to my beer "allowance" so to speak. As far as I'm concerned it is paid for - by me!
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Legal nightmare
Any legal bods out there know if in French law it is ok to search peoples property on private premises without a warrant? The place to do this sort of thing is at customs.
Just for the information of the unenlightened these items presumably were taken from the remainder of the complimentary drinks to passengers. Most countries insist that e.g. an open bottle of wine is poured down the drain on landing! I see no harm in the crew taking this sort of thing.
The problem like anything else is the few that completely abuse the system. We have all seen this happen, but I think AirCanada's method of dealing with it is a perfect example of today's Airline management style. They may have dealt with a small problem successfully, but just think of the illwill they have created among a huge percentage of their staff. But then the words think and Airline management rarely coincide!
Just for the information of the unenlightened these items presumably were taken from the remainder of the complimentary drinks to passengers. Most countries insist that e.g. an open bottle of wine is poured down the drain on landing! I see no harm in the crew taking this sort of thing.
The problem like anything else is the few that completely abuse the system. We have all seen this happen, but I think AirCanada's method of dealing with it is a perfect example of today's Airline management style. They may have dealt with a small problem successfully, but just think of the illwill they have created among a huge percentage of their staff. But then the words think and Airline management rarely coincide!
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Taking property that isn't yours and in violation of known company policy anyway is of course wrong and whoever did it was wrong.
However, the action taken by the company at what cost (okay security people I need two volunteers to fly to Paris and photograph hotel rooms....not everybody all at once, now, can't see which hand up belongs to who) is pretty silly. even though what the crew did was wrong the company could have found a better way for management to let them know it was wrong (as if they needed reminding, must be expats because us Americans (Yank type, south of boarder) all know that Canadians would never do anything like that) and resolve the situation without being so heavy handed.
French law is different (Napoleanic Code and all that) but if it is a hotel room and it is after you checked out it isn't your property, it is the property of the hotel and I bet if a reasonable chain of custody on the contraband and evidence could be demonstrated the crew involved would at least have a lot of explaining to do. Question is, does AIRCAN bring a police complaint in France and have people arrested for theft, convicted in France and then fire them on the basis of the conviction or just sack them in Canada and then start the labor laws into action right off. Twere I AIR CAN management I wouldn't be such a&&h(*%$ right off, but if I really wanted the crew good and proper I'd do the criminal complaint in France while the crew was in France and have the thieves arrested.
However, the action taken by the company at what cost (okay security people I need two volunteers to fly to Paris and photograph hotel rooms....not everybody all at once, now, can't see which hand up belongs to who) is pretty silly. even though what the crew did was wrong the company could have found a better way for management to let them know it was wrong (as if they needed reminding, must be expats because us Americans (Yank type, south of boarder) all know that Canadians would never do anything like that) and resolve the situation without being so heavy handed.
French law is different (Napoleanic Code and all that) but if it is a hotel room and it is after you checked out it isn't your property, it is the property of the hotel and I bet if a reasonable chain of custody on the contraband and evidence could be demonstrated the crew involved would at least have a lot of explaining to do. Question is, does AIRCAN bring a police complaint in France and have people arrested for theft, convicted in France and then fire them on the basis of the conviction or just sack them in Canada and then start the labor laws into action right off. Twere I AIR CAN management I wouldn't be such a&&h(*%$ right off, but if I really wanted the crew good and proper I'd do the criminal complaint in France while the crew was in France and have the thieves arrested.
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I wonder how much drink the security personnel had on there flight to and from Paris? Surely even if they had soft drinks the cost on board the cost of these drinks must have equalled the crew drinks found in the hotel! AND thats before we even begin to add in the fare taxes paid by the company to position them & accommodate them in Paris.
Don't know whether economy class drinks are all complimentary. If not, wouldn't an alibi be that you paid for them through the till during flight?
Don't know whether economy class drinks are all complimentary. If not, wouldn't an alibi be that you paid for them through the till during flight?
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Dom Joly, Avman
You both seem to be missing the point, this is not an isolated occurance. When you add up the amount of booze that is taken by the crew at the end of each sector over the whole operation, the cost is pretty substantial.
If, as you both seem to think, that it is acceptable for crew to help themselves to the booze, then is it also acceptable for Despatchers, Engineers, Loaders, Cleaners etc etc to also help themselves?
Theft is theft whatever 'spin' you put on it and as our US cousins say - 'If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.'
You both seem to be missing the point, this is not an isolated occurance. When you add up the amount of booze that is taken by the crew at the end of each sector over the whole operation, the cost is pretty substantial.
If, as you both seem to think, that it is acceptable for crew to help themselves to the booze, then is it also acceptable for Despatchers, Engineers, Loaders, Cleaners etc etc to also help themselves?
Theft is theft whatever 'spin' you put on it and as our US cousins say - 'If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.'
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just in case people think I'm on AC's case.
I happened to read the papers and remembered a thread in one of the forums recently on this topic. I believe "pilfering" was what the Toronto Sun called it, unfortunately that link seems to have broken.
No offence intended, merely bringing the message!
I happened to read the papers and remembered a thread in one of the forums recently on this topic. I believe "pilfering" was what the Toronto Sun called it, unfortunately that link seems to have broken.
No offence intended, merely bringing the message!
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Good Morning All,
I suspect that my comments will draw rebukes to stay out of matters I know nothing about because of my status as an occasional SLF. But I don't think this is a professional pilots issue, this is an issue of personal integrity and ethics and expecting the same standard of behavior from everyone. Either you consider yourself an honest person therefore you never steal or you are a thief. There is no middle ground, there are no exceptions to being honest. The Ten Commandments doesn't say " you shall not steal anything with a fair market value in excess of $500.00 or more than once" It says " Thou shall not steal." Any rationalizing from that point is an attempt to conceal a lapse in ethical behavior.
A man who taught me most of what I know today put it simply. "There is no substitute for the truth, there is no such thing as being almost honest" Many of the CEO's that we are investigating today ignored that point, to their detriment and our financial loss. In anticipation of a rebuttal that may not come, it doesn't matter if what you stole or pilfered or pinched was worth a $1.00 or $1,000,000.00. If it doesn't belong to you and you took it, you are a thief, a crook, a robber.
Thank you
I suspect that my comments will draw rebukes to stay out of matters I know nothing about because of my status as an occasional SLF. But I don't think this is a professional pilots issue, this is an issue of personal integrity and ethics and expecting the same standard of behavior from everyone. Either you consider yourself an honest person therefore you never steal or you are a thief. There is no middle ground, there are no exceptions to being honest. The Ten Commandments doesn't say " you shall not steal anything with a fair market value in excess of $500.00 or more than once" It says " Thou shall not steal." Any rationalizing from that point is an attempt to conceal a lapse in ethical behavior.
A man who taught me most of what I know today put it simply. "There is no substitute for the truth, there is no such thing as being almost honest" Many of the CEO's that we are investigating today ignored that point, to their detriment and our financial loss. In anticipation of a rebuttal that may not come, it doesn't matter if what you stole or pilfered or pinched was worth a $1.00 or $1,000,000.00. If it doesn't belong to you and you took it, you are a thief, a crook, a robber.
Thank you
Jet II , I think that you missed my point - which was that said articles were paid for by the passengers that didn't consume them.
T_richard, how right you are. Therefore, I reckon we are all thieves, crooks and robbers, because if you try and convince me that you have never taken anything in your entire life I certainly won't believe you.
The taking of some drinks and food by cockpit and cabin personnel has been going on in the airline business since in-flight service began. It's a little perk of the job. And, as I say again, it is actually paid for (with the exception of airlines that don"t provide complimentary service).
T_richard, how right you are. Therefore, I reckon we are all thieves, crooks and robbers, because if you try and convince me that you have never taken anything in your entire life I certainly won't believe you.
The taking of some drinks and food by cockpit and cabin personnel has been going on in the airline business since in-flight service began. It's a little perk of the job. And, as I say again, it is actually paid for (with the exception of airlines that don"t provide complimentary service).
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Avman,
As a child I was guilty of the occasional 5 fingered candy bar and inspecting mommy's wallet for wornout dollar bills. As an adult, I'm afraid you must call me a liar, because I can't recall taking anything that didn't belong to me or wasn't offered to me for free. There are no "perks" in my business, I earn a living, I use that money to buy what I want or need. End of story. I will not take your comment about not believing me to heart, since we do not know each other. Your scepticism is understandable in this day, but in my case it is misplaced. My mentor from the time I graduated from college till his death 15 years later taught me what he taught me, I would not be comfortable with myself stealing a pen, a note pad or anything else.
As a child I was guilty of the occasional 5 fingered candy bar and inspecting mommy's wallet for wornout dollar bills. As an adult, I'm afraid you must call me a liar, because I can't recall taking anything that didn't belong to me or wasn't offered to me for free. There are no "perks" in my business, I earn a living, I use that money to buy what I want or need. End of story. I will not take your comment about not believing me to heart, since we do not know each other. Your scepticism is understandable in this day, but in my case it is misplaced. My mentor from the time I graduated from college till his death 15 years later taught me what he taught me, I would not be comfortable with myself stealing a pen, a note pad or anything else.
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I think T-richard is right. Times were when we finished a duty and headed for a hotel, it was tradition to take 4 beers each from the bar. Apart from hating beer, I wish I had more independance of mind when I was young and refused more often- I found the whole thing demeaning and dishonest. A supermarket worker doesn't say to himself "phew, that was a long day- I shall take 4 beers off the shelf on my way home!"!
If it ever was a 'tradition', it should stop now- there was never any justification for it, and seen in hindsight, I was obliged to be dishonest to fit in with my peers. Any questionning of 'why are we taking it?' was usually met with an aggressive reaction and justification. If crews want to drink, they should do so like everybody else does.....and pay for it themselves. Airlines can hardly prosecute theft from other departments and turn a blind eye to crews raiding the bar. Time to end this practice once and for all.
If it ever was a 'tradition', it should stop now- there was never any justification for it, and seen in hindsight, I was obliged to be dishonest to fit in with my peers. Any questionning of 'why are we taking it?' was usually met with an aggressive reaction and justification. If crews want to drink, they should do so like everybody else does.....and pay for it themselves. Airlines can hardly prosecute theft from other departments and turn a blind eye to crews raiding the bar. Time to end this practice once and for all.
