Air Canada crew rooms searched for "pilfering"
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My 2¢ worth
As an Air Canada pilot, I am not offended by the company's actions and I am disappointed by the crew members involved. There was an article in the company propaganda newspaper in the past few months talking about this issue and giving a clear warning to people.
Some of the people involved were well known offenders and that's what brought their attention to the company.
Maybe some of the legal eagles here on the forum can explain to me how it's an invasion of privacy after you check out of the room? The people left the evidence in the rooms. The crew members were no longer the legal occupants of the room, the hotel allowed AC security to have a look. Sounds all above board to me.
What is even more despicable was ACPA's email response suggesting that pilots better hide the evidence when they vacate their hotel rooms. Rome is burning and ACPA is outraged by the company's actions. I'm outraged that ACPA has nothing better to do than be outraged
Some of the people involved were well known offenders and that's what brought their attention to the company.
Maybe some of the legal eagles here on the forum can explain to me how it's an invasion of privacy after you check out of the room? The people left the evidence in the rooms. The crew members were no longer the legal occupants of the room, the hotel allowed AC security to have a look. Sounds all above board to me.
What is even more despicable was ACPA's email response suggesting that pilots better hide the evidence when they vacate their hotel rooms. Rome is burning and ACPA is outraged by the company's actions. I'm outraged that ACPA has nothing better to do than be outraged
When I read Avmans comments, I see how the thieves themselves justified their actions. Saying the passengers payed for the drinks but didn't drink them, therefore they are mine and not the companies is like a politician saying I didn't use my allowance for travel, so I will pocket a few bucks.
Integrity is that voice in our head which questions our actions, and how we justify them is with statements such as "It's only a few bucks" or "The passengers didn't drink them so I will"
Integrity is that voice in our head which questions our actions, and how we justify them is with statements such as "It's only a few bucks" or "The passengers didn't drink them so I will"
767-300ER,
I see no invasion of privacy, but there is no legally provable link to what's in the bin and the previous occupant. The company must prove that the crew member in question actually placed any such stuff in the bin, which is manifestly impossible unless the person is stopped as s/he leaves the room and the bin searched right then. Do it any time after the occupant has physically left the room and the case has no legs.
I, too, enjoyed the "jungle juice" that our cabin crew used to produce for the crew bus, but those days are well and truly over. Our management, as I understand it, used to apply "the Nelson touch" to such goings on. Right now it's all different. Are you prepared to risk your career for a can of beer, cost $1 Oz??? I'm certainly not!!
As a former union leader, I assure you that your association MUST defend these people - that's what unions do, whether they like it or not, so let them get on with it. If their advice was to "hide the evidence", then the leadership needs replacing. I would expect their advice to be "don't do it, ever".
I see no invasion of privacy, but there is no legally provable link to what's in the bin and the previous occupant. The company must prove that the crew member in question actually placed any such stuff in the bin, which is manifestly impossible unless the person is stopped as s/he leaves the room and the bin searched right then. Do it any time after the occupant has physically left the room and the case has no legs.
I, too, enjoyed the "jungle juice" that our cabin crew used to produce for the crew bus, but those days are well and truly over. Our management, as I understand it, used to apply "the Nelson touch" to such goings on. Right now it's all different. Are you prepared to risk your career for a can of beer, cost $1 Oz??? I'm certainly not!!
As a former union leader, I assure you that your association MUST defend these people - that's what unions do, whether they like it or not, so let them get on with it. If their advice was to "hide the evidence", then the leadership needs replacing. I would expect their advice to be "don't do it, ever".
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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So, aircrew are not only overpaid, underworked drunks, we are now petty thieves as well, or so it would seem in the eyes of the travelling public.
Aircrew, and especially the cabin staff, are very much the front line in any airline's public image. To employ methods that amount to little more than entrapment in order to catch the offending few, with the resultant press coverage of same, is to shamefully discredit the entire operation.
The Air Canada security chief who mounted this operation is a short-sighted thug, and should be relieved of his position immediately for this embarrasment. The public relations damage to Air Canada is enormous.
Aircrew, and especially the cabin staff, are very much the front line in any airline's public image. To employ methods that amount to little more than entrapment in order to catch the offending few, with the resultant press coverage of same, is to shamefully discredit the entire operation.
The Air Canada security chief who mounted this operation is a short-sighted thug, and should be relieved of his position immediately for this embarrasment. The public relations damage to Air Canada is enormous.
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Bugg it is not entrapment unless some one within the security section at Air Canada facilitated the removal of the booze by the crew, eg; they handed them the bottles as they deplaned and said"go hae a good time you silly kids" The "thug " was doing the job he was hired to do, if he didn't do it he would/should be fired.
I suspect that the majority of the general public on both sides of the pond have no clue that this occured. Even if they read it in the NY Times, it gets lost in the noise about Iraq, social issue, and the latest gruesome murder/rape/pilage.
My compliments to 767-300R, that is the response I would expect from an Airline Captain.
I suspect that the majority of the general public on both sides of the pond have no clue that this occured. Even if they read it in the NY Times, it gets lost in the noise about Iraq, social issue, and the latest gruesome murder/rape/pilage.
My compliments to 767-300R, that is the response I would expect from an Airline Captain.
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767-300ER
Though I to would not agree would taking anything off the aircraft at anytime for any reason I would take serious objection with you bad- mouthing your own elected association on an International airline forum......I belive it is part of your culture though, this need to 'tell' which exists at every level of government .......confidential reporting telephone no. to beat the band for anything from dogs without licences to hydrponic growing houses........anyways your elected member was only doing his/her job in communicating with his association.......unlike your company management........would it be just as despicable for your company to begin reinterpreting your contract without consultation with your members.........the growing mountain of contractual grievances would speak for themselves and your fellow pilots would be better served by you channeling your petty comments where they are really needed and leaving communication between ACPA and the world with the members who been given the responsibility to do so.........were you a tatle-tale at school by any chance?/
Though I to would not agree would taking anything off the aircraft at anytime for any reason I would take serious objection with you bad- mouthing your own elected association on an International airline forum......I belive it is part of your culture though, this need to 'tell' which exists at every level of government .......confidential reporting telephone no. to beat the band for anything from dogs without licences to hydrponic growing houses........anyways your elected member was only doing his/her job in communicating with his association.......unlike your company management........would it be just as despicable for your company to begin reinterpreting your contract without consultation with your members.........the growing mountain of contractual grievances would speak for themselves and your fellow pilots would be better served by you channeling your petty comments where they are really needed and leaving communication between ACPA and the world with the members who been given the responsibility to do so.........were you a tatle-tale at school by any chance?/
Controversial, moi?
T_richard
I was pilloried on another thread on Jetblast,
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=76546
for espousing similar thoughts to yours. The accusation that you must steal things as well to justify the dishonesty of the accuser is a red herring.
Thank you for having the courage to voice your opinion.
Either one tries to be honest in all conduct or one doesn't. As has been said there is no such thing as a partial thief.
I have to agree (unusually!) with Notso on this one.
I think the whole issue is symptomatic of the society we have allowed to develop where children are given very few moral guidelines or limits in virtually any area by many, many parents.
The rapidly growing anarchy we all experience in everyday life is the unpleasant result.
I was brought up with a very strong sense of right and wrong. So much so that if I do behave in a less than honest fashion it greatly troubles my conscience.
I guess I would find life easier if it didn't.
My airline has a perfectly reasonable crew purchase scheme.
There is no excuse for pilfering from the aircraft and if I witness it I deal with it in an appropriate manner.
I was pilloried on another thread on Jetblast,
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=76546
for espousing similar thoughts to yours. The accusation that you must steal things as well to justify the dishonesty of the accuser is a red herring.
Thank you for having the courage to voice your opinion.
Either one tries to be honest in all conduct or one doesn't. As has been said there is no such thing as a partial thief.
I have to agree (unusually!) with Notso on this one.
I think the whole issue is symptomatic of the society we have allowed to develop where children are given very few moral guidelines or limits in virtually any area by many, many parents.
The rapidly growing anarchy we all experience in everyday life is the unpleasant result.
I was brought up with a very strong sense of right and wrong. So much so that if I do behave in a less than honest fashion it greatly troubles my conscience.
I guess I would find life easier if it didn't.
My airline has a perfectly reasonable crew purchase scheme.
There is no excuse for pilfering from the aircraft and if I witness it I deal with it in an appropriate manner.
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M Mouse
I encountered the thread in question when it was active, I was disgusted by the casual view that some of the participants had toward theft. You are correct in your statement about the lax moral codes our children are adopting as their guide to proper social behavior. One can't expect an adult to recognize stealing for what it if they weren't taught right from wrong as a child. All of the spouting about emtrapment and "goods already paid for" are a red herring to hide the lack of a clear morlal compass. What is the honor code at West Point? " It’s a simple code all West Pointers must live by: A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal or tolerate those who do.
What else does one need to know to live a good life? Nothing ambiguous there. SOme people don't know what they don't know
I encountered the thread in question when it was active, I was disgusted by the casual view that some of the participants had toward theft. You are correct in your statement about the lax moral codes our children are adopting as their guide to proper social behavior. One can't expect an adult to recognize stealing for what it if they weren't taught right from wrong as a child. All of the spouting about emtrapment and "goods already paid for" are a red herring to hide the lack of a clear morlal compass. What is the honor code at West Point? " It’s a simple code all West Pointers must live by: A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal or tolerate those who do.
What else does one need to know to live a good life? Nothing ambiguous there. SOme people don't know what they don't know
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I don't work for an airline, I work for a computer manufacturer. They make hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of computers every year. How can I justify taking just one, or a keyboard, or a mouse, for my own use? I can't. It's not mine. They pay me a salary to work, if I want more, I should ask for it or leave. I agree with T_richard. You either steal or you don't. Once you cross the line, it becomes very easy to move the "bar" up to bigger things.
As far as the privacy issue goes, who pays for the hotel room? Not the crew, but the airline.
As far as I can see, the airline warned everyone equally, then followed up with action. If those caught didn't steal, they would have had nothing to worry about. It's a shame they had to so to such great lengths to get the message across, but I would bet most employees will now think real hard about taking something they have no right to.
As far as the privacy issue goes, who pays for the hotel room? Not the crew, but the airline.
As far as I can see, the airline warned everyone equally, then followed up with action. If those caught didn't steal, they would have had nothing to worry about. It's a shame they had to so to such great lengths to get the message across, but I would bet most employees will now think real hard about taking something they have no right to.
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Mr or Mrs Jammers:
part of my culture...which culture is this????
When elected union officials state "...and ask that you govern yourselves accordingly when checking out of hotel rooms." what am I to conclude about the meaning of the union's message???
Please tell me what you think that sentence means?
PS If you are an ACPA member then you'll be aware that ACPA's illustrious leaders shut down the ACPA forum where things like this could be discussed in house.
part of my culture...which culture is this????
When elected union officials state "...and ask that you govern yourselves accordingly when checking out of hotel rooms." what am I to conclude about the meaning of the union's message???
Please tell me what you think that sentence means?
PS If you are an ACPA member then you'll be aware that ACPA's illustrious leaders shut down the ACPA forum where things like this could be discussed in house.
Last edited by 767-300ER; 18th Jan 2003 at 20:22.
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Mustufagander:
I'm no lawyer and don't know all of the detail, but I know enough to say that the cans were specially marked with an invisible dye. Its kind of difficult for the alleged thiefs to claim that the maids put those cans in the garbage or that the previous occupant did.
Unless of course, Paris hotel workers have access to Canadian soft drink and beer cans and invisible dye and maliciously place them in airline crew rooms upon checkout or the crew member.
I'm no lawyer and don't know all of the detail, but I know enough to say that the cans were specially marked with an invisible dye. Its kind of difficult for the alleged thiefs to claim that the maids put those cans in the garbage or that the previous occupant did.
Unless of course, Paris hotel workers have access to Canadian soft drink and beer cans and invisible dye and maliciously place them in airline crew rooms upon checkout or the crew member.
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Perhaps T_Richard, but I have already seen the article in several newspapers, front page on one of them, for some reason the press has the scent of blood. My suggestion to Air Canada is that security perhaps have a meeting or two with the PR department before embarking on highly controversial and embarrasing maneuvers such as this one. There are other, much more discreet ways to halt theft by certain individuals.
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Bugg I see you are a pilot, if you are employed by Air Canada I am sorry that these people brought any embarrassment to you. I will respectfully disagree with you view of AC's handling of this ongoing theft, but as a 23 year veteran of the investment securities business, I know what it is like to have your Co's name in the paper in this way. Peace
767-300ER,
The law requires proof . No proof, no case. You ought to be well aware of that, given that you come from the North American continent - the home of smart arse lawers.
Theft is theft - no ifs, buts or maybes, however, proper proof must be supplied. It's a basic tennet of western law.
You mention the previous occupant. Given that crews often "hot room", that has the beginnings of a good defence.
Do you see what I'm getting at? By all means prosecute thieves, but do it properly. From what we read on this thread, AC security have set themselves up to be carved to pieces in court - if the company is dopey enough to go that far.
The law requires proof . No proof, no case. You ought to be well aware of that, given that you come from the North American continent - the home of smart arse lawers.
Theft is theft - no ifs, buts or maybes, however, proper proof must be supplied. It's a basic tennet of western law.
You mention the previous occupant. Given that crews often "hot room", that has the beginnings of a good defence.
Do you see what I'm getting at? By all means prosecute thieves, but do it properly. From what we read on this thread, AC security have set themselves up to be carved to pieces in court - if the company is dopey enough to go that far.
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Mustafagander
Did you read my post? If the cans of beer had been marked with an invisible dye, with a specific marking, then how do you think that can ended up in a crew room??????
Do you not think that the Corporate Security people might have thought out a few of the details about this????
How about you take 6 people, accuse them all of theft. You find the weak link person, show him the evidence of the cans, get them to implicate the others (in return for some leniency) and bingo....proof that the drinks were stolen.
This is how many police investigations work.
It's not rocket science.
Did you read my post? If the cans of beer had been marked with an invisible dye, with a specific marking, then how do you think that can ended up in a crew room??????
Do you not think that the Corporate Security people might have thought out a few of the details about this????
How about you take 6 people, accuse them all of theft. You find the weak link person, show him the evidence of the cans, get them to implicate the others (in return for some leniency) and bingo....proof that the drinks were stolen.
This is how many police investigations work.
It's not rocket science.
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Who amongst us has never ever in their lifetime used the company telephone for a personal call without making a financial contribution to the company. How many of us have used the HF or ACARS for personal communications?
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767-300ER
I'm afraid HiSpeedTape is correct. We all live in glass houses so don't be so quick to jump to judgment. By the way, how this whole scenario went down leaves a lot to be desired. This was not good security work but a massive PR blunder..
:o
I'm afraid HiSpeedTape is correct. We all live in glass houses so don't be so quick to jump to judgment. By the way, how this whole scenario went down leaves a lot to be desired. This was not good security work but a massive PR blunder..
:o
767-300ER,
I think you may watch too many movies. What we have here is a civil matter, not criminal. I'll bet your company manuals and your work agreement allow for accused persons to be represented by a union person. Your union uses the same representative to represent the lot and all wll hold the line. That's how I've done it myself in a few situations.
To reiterate, there is no condoning theft. However, if you want to bust the miscreants, do it within the law and within the bounds of "natural justice". That, too, is not rocket science.
If I wish to catch out some notorious can-lifters, I will stop them as they step onto the aerobridge after arrival. If they have the goods in their posession, they're shot ducks. If I try to search their rooms after they have checked out and find the stuff, I'm a shot duck because I cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that this person had posession of it. BTW, my mob have been using marked cans and bottles for about 20 years, so we're used to it in Oz.
I think we are basically on the same side, but maybe the fact that I have had to defend some technical crew accused of this very offence makes me see the details a bit differently.
I think you may watch too many movies. What we have here is a civil matter, not criminal. I'll bet your company manuals and your work agreement allow for accused persons to be represented by a union person. Your union uses the same representative to represent the lot and all wll hold the line. That's how I've done it myself in a few situations.
To reiterate, there is no condoning theft. However, if you want to bust the miscreants, do it within the law and within the bounds of "natural justice". That, too, is not rocket science.
If I wish to catch out some notorious can-lifters, I will stop them as they step onto the aerobridge after arrival. If they have the goods in their posession, they're shot ducks. If I try to search their rooms after they have checked out and find the stuff, I'm a shot duck because I cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that this person had posession of it. BTW, my mob have been using marked cans and bottles for about 20 years, so we're used to it in Oz.
I think we are basically on the same side, but maybe the fact that I have had to defend some technical crew accused of this very offence makes me see the details a bit differently.
Controversial, moi?
Who amongst us has never ever in their lifetime used the company telephone for a personal call without making a financial contribution to the company. How many of us have used the HF or ACARS for personal communications?
Nobody is claiming to lead a perfectly virtuous life.
What is apparent is a difference in attitude between plain right and plain wrong.
A further thought, whether Air Canada, prosecutes, sacks or takes no further action it will be a brave employee that continues to pilfer Air Canada property.
BA have had a similar exercise or two in the past 10 years. Once the brouhaha has died down it does change peoples thinking and actions.
Perhaps Air Canada management aren't stupid.
Last edited by M.Mouse; 20th Jan 2003 at 08:16.