To scab or not to scab in Cathay, that's the question !
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The arguments and counter-arguments between the 'true believers' (unionists) and the 'individualists with the right to decide what's best for themselves' (apologists for pilots employed during strikes) is like a CVR endless loop tape - the same protagonists (myself included) making the same points over and over again.
Maybe it's time to accept that this argument is a bit like two people from vastly disparate cultural backgrounds discussing religion. There's no hope of agreement because there's simply no common ground to start with.
Perhaps because this is a UK-based web site, (and perhaps not), many of the 'individualists' seem to be UK-based, so I'm wondering if this difference of opinion isn't in the main a cultural thing. Although the majority of people now resident in the ex-colonies can trace they family trees back to the Old Dart, I'd make so bold as to say the England of today bears very little resemblance to the country - and the culture - that the now colonials' great great grandparents left, (either willingly - or not so willingly, under 18th or 19th century 'assisted passages' courtesy of HMG).
Those who did arrive in the new lands quickly found they simply had to co-operate to survive in what were often extremely harsh and unforgiving circumstances - both natural and man-made. The 'individualist', who always looked to himself with an attitude of 'devil take the hindmost', frequently came unstuck because like it or not, in the harsh colonial environment, he needed friends quite frequently just to survive, let alone prosper. This engendered a fierce tribalism in the majority of these people, an innate understanding of the common good and a fair go for all.
What was honed in the frozen wastes of the Canadian north or the opposite extremes of the Australian or African bush became national characteristics when those fledgling nations sent their sons to war in defence of the Old Country. The people in England saw that these young men had become subtly (and often not so subtly!) different to their own sons. Roughly spoken, frequently rough in manners and totally dismissive of authority, these men would speak their minds and make no attempt to hide their feelings or their opinions of people who had not earned their respect. They did this even to those whose position on the social tree demanded respect (or at least a public pretence of it). They also did not understand something every English child understood almost from the moment he drew his first breath, the all important matter of class and where one stood - and remained because that's what you born to - on the complex English social class tree.
Like all generalisations, this argument has some gaping holes. There are people in the each of the countries - and quite large groups of them - who'd fit far more comfortably into the mould I've drawn for the other group than into their own so-called 'national character', (eg, supposedly the person who started this thread). But the fact remains, there seems to be a large proportion of the UK population - or from within that section of it from which many pilots are drawn - who honestly and quite sincerely see nothing untoward or dishonourable in taking a short term personal advantage at another's expense. Perhaps it's time we colonials came to accept this as a fact of life.
Maybe it's time to accept that this argument is a bit like two people from vastly disparate cultural backgrounds discussing religion. There's no hope of agreement because there's simply no common ground to start with.
Perhaps because this is a UK-based web site, (and perhaps not), many of the 'individualists' seem to be UK-based, so I'm wondering if this difference of opinion isn't in the main a cultural thing. Although the majority of people now resident in the ex-colonies can trace they family trees back to the Old Dart, I'd make so bold as to say the England of today bears very little resemblance to the country - and the culture - that the now colonials' great great grandparents left, (either willingly - or not so willingly, under 18th or 19th century 'assisted passages' courtesy of HMG).
Those who did arrive in the new lands quickly found they simply had to co-operate to survive in what were often extremely harsh and unforgiving circumstances - both natural and man-made. The 'individualist', who always looked to himself with an attitude of 'devil take the hindmost', frequently came unstuck because like it or not, in the harsh colonial environment, he needed friends quite frequently just to survive, let alone prosper. This engendered a fierce tribalism in the majority of these people, an innate understanding of the common good and a fair go for all.
What was honed in the frozen wastes of the Canadian north or the opposite extremes of the Australian or African bush became national characteristics when those fledgling nations sent their sons to war in defence of the Old Country. The people in England saw that these young men had become subtly (and often not so subtly!) different to their own sons. Roughly spoken, frequently rough in manners and totally dismissive of authority, these men would speak their minds and make no attempt to hide their feelings or their opinions of people who had not earned their respect. They did this even to those whose position on the social tree demanded respect (or at least a public pretence of it). They also did not understand something every English child understood almost from the moment he drew his first breath, the all important matter of class and where one stood - and remained because that's what you born to - on the complex English social class tree.
Like all generalisations, this argument has some gaping holes. There are people in the each of the countries - and quite large groups of them - who'd fit far more comfortably into the mould I've drawn for the other group than into their own so-called 'national character', (eg, supposedly the person who started this thread). But the fact remains, there seems to be a large proportion of the UK population - or from within that section of it from which many pilots are drawn - who honestly and quite sincerely see nothing untoward or dishonourable in taking a short term personal advantage at another's expense. Perhaps it's time we colonials came to accept this as a fact of life.
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Wiley
Wise old bird as usual, but I think I'll stick to the old colonial way.
I believe that we colonial oiks have actually maintained what was the "stamp" of Empire and that was the rule of "it's just not cricket" and even that great game has been debased.
The Huns are at the gate.
Kaptin M
a_s_u's peroration is faintly reminiscent of our old friend 'Tokyo Rose'.
'Hong Kong Bauhinia' perhaps?
Or is he realy a later incarnation of 'Lord Haw Haw'
Wise old bird as usual, but I think I'll stick to the old colonial way.
I believe that we colonial oiks have actually maintained what was the "stamp" of Empire and that was the rule of "it's just not cricket" and even that great game has been debased.
The Huns are at the gate.
Kaptin M
a_s_u's peroration is faintly reminiscent of our old friend 'Tokyo Rose'.
'Hong Kong Bauhinia' perhaps?
Or is he realy a later incarnation of 'Lord Haw Haw'
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Sorry to attack your spelling nerves once more. I posted some more unstructured thoughts to all scabed up etc which I didnt think of yesterday by error on the other topic, "wahts happening at cx".
Thank you for your replies to my first posting.
All the best,
cws
etdited even this short one for the most obvious mistakes..
[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: cws ]
Thank you for your replies to my first posting.
All the best,
cws
etdited even this short one for the most obvious mistakes..
[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: cws ]
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Well first I have to declare myself an Englishman. I think that to postulate that we are bereft of conscience is a bit rich. Have you seen the way the Aussies play cricket? What a magnificent team, but why do they have to introduce bad manners and intimidation into the game? Yes it works - they're stuffing us - but surely that isn't the point.
On the subject of national character, and the ex-colonial's sense of fair play, do the Aussies, Kiwis and Americans have a sense of common good and give a fair go to all Aborigines, Maoris and native American Indians? No they don't, they sh*t on them.
None of us is perfect folks. It is not the right time for international name-calling and amateur social anthropology. It just isn't cricket!
On the subject of national character, and the ex-colonial's sense of fair play, do the Aussies, Kiwis and Americans have a sense of common good and give a fair go to all Aborigines, Maoris and native American Indians? No they don't, they sh*t on them.
None of us is perfect folks. It is not the right time for international name-calling and amateur social anthropology. It just isn't cricket!
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So... all_scabbed_up(_again?) seemed fixated on something that was supposed to happen on Aug 1.
It's now Aug 3... What the current state of play? Has the management's attack collapsed or are the pilots making a desparate last wicket stand?
It's now Aug 3... What the current state of play? Has the management's attack collapsed or are the pilots making a desparate last wicket stand?
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I very much doubt that direct entry pilots will appear at Cathay,getting type rated pilots is one thing,but getting them up and running as line pilots at CX is another,and time ladies and gents is money.The DFO knows this,and goodwill is very,very hard to regain once lost,this is sailing very close to the wind indeed,it is a "Cold War" stand off.As the Americans found later,the perceived threat was far less potent than originally thought.Only time will tell on this one,either management ease up,or I believe CX will go under eventually in time,certainly as a place to work.
Cathay have an enviable reputation amongst first world carriers,with passengers and pilots alike,however,this is partly due to the fact that in the SE Asia region Cathay have not suffered a hull loss,whilst neighbouring carriers have a somewhat less enviable reputation,passegers know this too.
Why I hear you ask?Because of the standard of the Flt Ops division and pilots,which is now quite amazingly being jeopardised.
It will IMHO be a SHORT term gain,but almost inevitably a LONG term LOSS to Cathay if contract pilots are hired to break the pilots,I for one am shocked to see this type of behaviour from a once great airline.I use the past tense,as I fear the best days are well and truly gone.Good luck,I sincerely hope a successful outcome is achieved.Quo vardis
Cathay have an enviable reputation amongst first world carriers,with passengers and pilots alike,however,this is partly due to the fact that in the SE Asia region Cathay have not suffered a hull loss,whilst neighbouring carriers have a somewhat less enviable reputation,passegers know this too.
Why I hear you ask?Because of the standard of the Flt Ops division and pilots,which is now quite amazingly being jeopardised.
It will IMHO be a SHORT term gain,but almost inevitably a LONG term LOSS to Cathay if contract pilots are hired to break the pilots,I for one am shocked to see this type of behaviour from a once great airline.I use the past tense,as I fear the best days are well and truly gone.Good luck,I sincerely hope a successful outcome is achieved.Quo vardis
The Reverend
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Sir4Short. You are indeed very short of the knowledge of labour rules in Hong Kong. It is unlawful to strike during working hours without the approval of the company involved. You may however, strike during off duty periods. As you will appreciate, an all out strike is no go in Hong Kong. The only recourse is a work to rule, or a WOE campaign (withdrawal of effort) which has been tried before. Unfortunately, neither of them have much teeth.
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Rommel,you are correct when you say "I believe Cathay will go under eventually in time,..."
Tyler and Co are doing to Cathay Pacific what Abeles and Co did to Ansett over a decade ago. A very sad state of affairs to watch the demise of what were once two very outstanding Airlines.
I wouldn't bet on Cathay having no contract direct entry pilots in the near future. Singapore Airlines have always had them and are a very successful airline,although you operate on a less liberal "conract" than in Cathay.
Good luck fellas.
Tyler and Co are doing to Cathay Pacific what Abeles and Co did to Ansett over a decade ago. A very sad state of affairs to watch the demise of what were once two very outstanding Airlines.
I wouldn't bet on Cathay having no contract direct entry pilots in the near future. Singapore Airlines have always had them and are a very successful airline,although you operate on a less liberal "conract" than in Cathay.
Good luck fellas.
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Beware the interim results due out, I believe, on 8 August.
There have been none too subtle hints that things will look pretty bleak and I don't suppose we will have to look very far for who is to blame.
If I remember correctly the last time Cathay announced poor results there were quite substantial numbers of lay offs although the 'airgroup' enjoyed a degree of protection at that time.
I suspect that any sympathy for the pilots has largely disappeared in the present climate and shouldn't be in the least bit surprised if there are a significant number of sackings due 'belt tightening'!
There have been none too subtle hints that things will look pretty bleak and I don't suppose we will have to look very far for who is to blame.
If I remember correctly the last time Cathay announced poor results there were quite substantial numbers of lay offs although the 'airgroup' enjoyed a degree of protection at that time.
I suspect that any sympathy for the pilots has largely disappeared in the present climate and shouldn't be in the least bit surprised if there are a significant number of sackings due 'belt tightening'!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Blowing $10 million per day (on wet-leased aircraft) for 40 days , on the OFFCHANCE that the pilots MIGHT have gone on strike, leaves no doubt as to who is costing Cathay the BIG money.
Haul their asses up before the shareholders to try to justify this ludicrous, unnecessary expenditure, rather a their lack of accountability!
Haul their asses up before the shareholders to try to justify this ludicrous, unnecessary expenditure, rather a their lack of accountability!
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The Scab
After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, He had some awful substance left with which He made a scab.
A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a water brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles.
When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and Angels weep in Heaven, and the Devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out.
No man (or woman) has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with. Judas was a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his Master, he had character enough to hang himself. A scab has not.
Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a commission in the British Army. The scab sells his birthright, country, his wife, his children and his fellowmen for an unfulfilled promise from his employer.
Esau was a traitor to himself; Judas was a traitor to his God; Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his country; a SCAB is a traitor to his God, his country, his family and his class.
--Jack London
After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, He had some awful substance left with which He made a scab.
A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a water brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles.
When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and Angels weep in Heaven, and the Devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out.
No man (or woman) has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with. Judas was a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his Master, he had character enough to hang himself. A scab has not.
Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a commission in the British Army. The scab sells his birthright, country, his wife, his children and his fellowmen for an unfulfilled promise from his employer.
Esau was a traitor to himself; Judas was a traitor to his God; Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his country; a SCAB is a traitor to his God, his country, his family and his class.
--Jack London
TR4A: Excellent description. The TR4 was a fun English car.
People rarely mention the doctor's union (the American Medical Assoc.) and the attorney's union (the American Bar Assoc.).
How about the airline mgmt unions, the Air Transport Assoc. and the Regional Airline Assoc.?
Do foreign airlines also belong to similar associations?
People rarely mention the doctor's union (the American Medical Assoc.) and the attorney's union (the American Bar Assoc.).
How about the airline mgmt unions, the Air Transport Assoc. and the Regional Airline Assoc.?
Do foreign airlines also belong to similar associations?
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a tr6 is much better...the next to last paragraph in your "soliloqy" there tr4 is a bit off the mark...take CO for example...scabs as they officially were were rewarded with permanent jobs, and union membership eventually...the union leadership has to invent another approach to ward off possible scabs, because after the CO "mass forgivness" the stigma of being a scab is cast aside..
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>>>>a tr6 is much better...the next to last paragraph in your "soliloqy" there tr4 is a bit off the mark...<<<<
This was written by Jack London (1876-1916)
from Oakland California.
The TR4A is a great car. All steel and a wood dash with real knock wire wheels.
This was written by Jack London (1876-1916)
from Oakland California.
The TR4A is a great car. All steel and a wood dash with real knock wire wheels.
TR4A: Our Dad had to sell the TR4 because we got too big for the back seat. Jack London was very perceptive.
At Continental, at least the scabs will gradually retire. And they are not "Super Scabs" under Gordon Bethune, according to an older CO guy who jumpseated with us from EWR. He said that you can often spot them because of the way they walk. But think about this formerly well-kept secret: several years ago, "Aviation Week" stated that about 20% of Delta's pilots did not belong to ALPA. Apparently almost all belong now. I guess they finally admitted to themselves that they too are blue-collar employees. This is a difficult concept for many civilian and military pilots (Citation, Beech-1900, FB-111, KC-135, SD3-30, take your pick) to grasp, if they are too impressed with themselves and/or the stripes on their shoulders and sleeves.
One of my FOs flew with Cathay, and has been back in the US over two years: he was an FO and has the 777 and 744 type ratings from there, but has no plans to convert them to US ratings or fly widebodies again (body clock).
He said that many of the remarks on PPrune in the past about Cathay were nowhere near the truth.
[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
At Continental, at least the scabs will gradually retire. And they are not "Super Scabs" under Gordon Bethune, according to an older CO guy who jumpseated with us from EWR. He said that you can often spot them because of the way they walk. But think about this formerly well-kept secret: several years ago, "Aviation Week" stated that about 20% of Delta's pilots did not belong to ALPA. Apparently almost all belong now. I guess they finally admitted to themselves that they too are blue-collar employees. This is a difficult concept for many civilian and military pilots (Citation, Beech-1900, FB-111, KC-135, SD3-30, take your pick) to grasp, if they are too impressed with themselves and/or the stripes on their shoulders and sleeves.
One of my FOs flew with Cathay, and has been back in the US over two years: he was an FO and has the 777 and 744 type ratings from there, but has no plans to convert them to US ratings or fly widebodies again (body clock).
He said that many of the remarks on PPrune in the past about Cathay were nowhere near the truth.
[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
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Friend or Foe. To be or not to be. Them or us. If you are NOT in my gang, then you must be ENEMY.
Those dubbed as SCABS have questional values, but they appear no WORSE than the greedy, selfish, intimidating bullies that are attacking them.
As the baddies are always the people on the other side, it stands to reason I am the goody.
Now which side should I choose ? Anyone got a coin ?
Those dubbed as SCABS have questional values, but they appear no WORSE than the greedy, selfish, intimidating bullies that are attacking them.
As the baddies are always the people on the other side, it stands to reason I am the goody.
Now which side should I choose ? Anyone got a coin ?