Citi Express Base Closures
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Yes but blueupgood,
If BA bought and amalgamated smaller companies to form a lower cost regional (BACX) that could compete with the very low cost competition in the regions and central to that plan was to get rid of all the aircraft and routes that were not already in established BA bases in the regions (MAN, BHX) and use the surplus and displaced pilots from BACX to crew aircraft that had been 'handed down' (RJ) from BA. Then all of a sudden BA CC objected to BACX operating these RJ's for whatever reason and mainline crews operated them instead, I see two outcomes:
1) BA can't compete in the regions and will give up leaving unflown routes to EZY et al. Surely long term impact on your job, you lose the connections and eventually PAX, leading to smaller aircraft and less frequent flights, then less mainline jobs when EZY join Star Alliance and connect with Virgin.
2) Those BACX pilots who would have flown the RJ have no aircraft to fly and when the disposal of aircraft within BACX starts, far from providing a better living for my kids, I wont be able to provide one at all.
How do you feel about that?
If BA bought and amalgamated smaller companies to form a lower cost regional (BACX) that could compete with the very low cost competition in the regions and central to that plan was to get rid of all the aircraft and routes that were not already in established BA bases in the regions (MAN, BHX) and use the surplus and displaced pilots from BACX to crew aircraft that had been 'handed down' (RJ) from BA. Then all of a sudden BA CC objected to BACX operating these RJ's for whatever reason and mainline crews operated them instead, I see two outcomes:
1) BA can't compete in the regions and will give up leaving unflown routes to EZY et al. Surely long term impact on your job, you lose the connections and eventually PAX, leading to smaller aircraft and less frequent flights, then less mainline jobs when EZY join Star Alliance and connect with Virgin.
2) Those BACX pilots who would have flown the RJ have no aircraft to fly and when the disposal of aircraft within BACX starts, far from providing a better living for my kids, I wont be able to provide one at all.
How do you feel about that?
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I have not posted on pprune for getting on for 2 years now (before the BA takeover) but have read with interest the comments and emotions expressed on this site over the past year or so.
Personally, I joined Manx/Bral, four years ago, as that company was a good career progression from my previous employment. Back in those dark ages the thought of working in the daylight was as good a reason as any for signing up. I have thoroughly enjoyed my time with that company since joining it. It has been very good to me and I do still pinch myself to believe that I am doing the job that I am.
However I have found myself over the previous year or so becoming more and more disallusioned for one reason or another.
I find that despite myself and the crews which I have had the pleasure in working with over the previous months having put extreme efforts in to overcoming our differences in working conditions and attitudes we do not get any recognition for our efforts from above. So much for leadership from above. However, my personnal thanks go to all of those involved, as ever.
On a day to day basis the basic organisation of the job seems to have deteriorated. Myself and a few of my collegues have come from single crew operations which did seem to work better than our operation at present. I assume that this reflects upon the infrastructure and not the upon the individuals involved.
Our SOP's have changed out of all recognition with a disturbing (to myself) trend toward no initiative being encouraged. Ticks in boxes seem to be of a higher priority.
Obviously I can only comment from a personnel viewpoint, but when I signed up for the duration, if I had wanted to operate aircraft with greater than 100 seats, disregarding the Bae 146-300 (apologies Bral), I would have had to offer my services elsewhere so the present discussion does nothing for me. However I do find that the present climate within the organisation does make me think of doing just that.
Come on guys and gals, get a grip of things and realise that at the end of the day we all have the same motives at heart.
So long for the next two years.
Regards.
Personally, I joined Manx/Bral, four years ago, as that company was a good career progression from my previous employment. Back in those dark ages the thought of working in the daylight was as good a reason as any for signing up. I have thoroughly enjoyed my time with that company since joining it. It has been very good to me and I do still pinch myself to believe that I am doing the job that I am.
However I have found myself over the previous year or so becoming more and more disallusioned for one reason or another.
I find that despite myself and the crews which I have had the pleasure in working with over the previous months having put extreme efforts in to overcoming our differences in working conditions and attitudes we do not get any recognition for our efforts from above. So much for leadership from above. However, my personnal thanks go to all of those involved, as ever.
On a day to day basis the basic organisation of the job seems to have deteriorated. Myself and a few of my collegues have come from single crew operations which did seem to work better than our operation at present. I assume that this reflects upon the infrastructure and not the upon the individuals involved.
Our SOP's have changed out of all recognition with a disturbing (to myself) trend toward no initiative being encouraged. Ticks in boxes seem to be of a higher priority.
Obviously I can only comment from a personnel viewpoint, but when I signed up for the duration, if I had wanted to operate aircraft with greater than 100 seats, disregarding the Bae 146-300 (apologies Bral), I would have had to offer my services elsewhere so the present discussion does nothing for me. However I do find that the present climate within the organisation does make me think of doing just that.
Come on guys and gals, get a grip of things and realise that at the end of the day we all have the same motives at heart.
So long for the next two years.
Regards.
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Hi Faq
"1) BA can't compete in the regions and will give up leaving unflown routes to EZY et al. Surely long term impact on your job, you lose the connections and eventually PAX, leading to smaller aircraft and less frequent flights, then less mainline jobs when EZY join Star Alliance and connect with Virgin. "
A reasonable argument on the surface. However the excess cost on a ticket in BA does not come from us pilots, and it's a problem our CC Chairman has stated to Rod Eddington on a number of occasions.
BA has a MASSIVE infrastructure, much of which has little to do with moving pax from A to B. Wages in certain areas are disproportionately high. Restrictive union practices abound all over the place. We pilots in the past have simply been the least immovable object, so got b@**ered about.
We are now lobbying hard in BA that the overheads have to fall, and that we as pilots are a negligable part of the overall excess. There is absolutely no reason why Mainline can't compete in the regions, unless you crush the operation with overheads, and allocate a meagre portion of interline traffic revenue!
"2) Those BACX pilots who would have flown the RJ have no aircraft to fly and when the disposal of aircraft within BACX starts, far from providing a better living for my kids, I wont be able to provide one at all. "
With respect, we at Mainline now face the prospect of having no aircraft to fly! We already have the pilots employed to fly the RJ's, and if they don't fly it, then the same number of pilots won't be employed at the end of the day. Are you suggesting BACX have already hired the pilots to fly a fleet that is in dispute, and may not actually 'arrive'? If this is the case, then I refer back to my previous post, and my DIVIDE AND CONQUER comment!
"1) BA can't compete in the regions and will give up leaving unflown routes to EZY et al. Surely long term impact on your job, you lose the connections and eventually PAX, leading to smaller aircraft and less frequent flights, then less mainline jobs when EZY join Star Alliance and connect with Virgin. "
A reasonable argument on the surface. However the excess cost on a ticket in BA does not come from us pilots, and it's a problem our CC Chairman has stated to Rod Eddington on a number of occasions.
BA has a MASSIVE infrastructure, much of which has little to do with moving pax from A to B. Wages in certain areas are disproportionately high. Restrictive union practices abound all over the place. We pilots in the past have simply been the least immovable object, so got b@**ered about.
We are now lobbying hard in BA that the overheads have to fall, and that we as pilots are a negligable part of the overall excess. There is absolutely no reason why Mainline can't compete in the regions, unless you crush the operation with overheads, and allocate a meagre portion of interline traffic revenue!
"2) Those BACX pilots who would have flown the RJ have no aircraft to fly and when the disposal of aircraft within BACX starts, far from providing a better living for my kids, I wont be able to provide one at all. "
With respect, we at Mainline now face the prospect of having no aircraft to fly! We already have the pilots employed to fly the RJ's, and if they don't fly it, then the same number of pilots won't be employed at the end of the day. Are you suggesting BACX have already hired the pilots to fly a fleet that is in dispute, and may not actually 'arrive'? If this is the case, then I refer back to my previous post, and my DIVIDE AND CONQUER comment!
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Why is BA taking back all it's cadet pilots from BACX and why is BA taking direct entry pilots next year if you might have nothing to fly?
Your commercial realism is on a par with Scargill's NUM.
Your commercial realism is on a par with Scargill's NUM.
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Faq
It's not rocket science!
We lose 19 airframes... 19 airframes of jobs go. If we are recruiting, then it's x pilots less 19 airframes worth.
By the same token, if Mainline is taking back it's cadets, then surely that means YOU will either need pilots, or you will work even harder!
My recollection of Scargill politics was ' do anything other than deal with the real facts'.
Pot kettel black?
It's not rocket science!
We lose 19 airframes... 19 airframes of jobs go. If we are recruiting, then it's x pilots less 19 airframes worth.
By the same token, if Mainline is taking back it's cadets, then surely that means YOU will either need pilots, or you will work even harder!
My recollection of Scargill politics was ' do anything other than deal with the real facts'.
Pot kettel black?
Back to the title of the thread - base closures.
Sorry to bring bad news but a date for your diaries:-
March 2003 Leeds and Plymouth bases close. I have no idea why these two
have been chosen but if it effects you, my heartfelt sympathy....
March 2003 Leeds and Plymouth bases close. I have no idea why these two
have been chosen but if it effects you, my heartfelt sympathy....
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Back to Base Closures
ETOPS - Is this fact or mere speculation again? Nobody appears to be able to confirm the intended closures of LBA or PLH although they do say, "no smoke without fire!"
Can you put some meat on the bones please and does this mean that NCL is in the clear? Presumably, they might also be getting some additional J41s?
Again, fact or speculation?
Can you put some meat on the bones please and does this mean that NCL is in the clear? Presumably, they might also be getting some additional J41s?
Again, fact or speculation?
Just kept my eyes and ears open
Sarl
I was in a public place but out of uniform and thus incognito. A senior chap in your company was inadvertantly "broadcasting" details of what was happening and I couldn't help but pick up this info as I was right next to him......
I was in a public place but out of uniform and thus incognito. A senior chap in your company was inadvertantly "broadcasting" details of what was happening and I couldn't help but pick up this info as I was right next to him......
Blue up Good,
Sorry, but you have quite unwittingly further supported the cause of all BACX pilots. BA T+C's are (or used to be) the industry standard, and BA wants to divide and rule being the salient points. EXACTLY!!!! Approximately 6 weeks ago, both the BACC and BACXCC believed that BA t+c's for BOTH companies would negate the scope argument from the RJ issue. Now (for reasons unknown, but assumed to be BA management pressure) the BACC has devised a more divisive version of scope which denies any BACX captain, including those currently 146 qualified, access to the RJ and God-forbid if you are a turboprop driver (in either seat) you shall be banished to the wastelands forever! Pardon me for being pedantic, but my two mates who are currently 747-400 skippers (and who agree with me on this debate!) both got their commands on the budgie in the highlands and islands. (For those who are mainline, and fighting this 'debate' without this 'knowledge' the budgie HS748 TURBOPROP as well as the BAeATP were 2 PROP aircraft operated by British Airways).
We would have no objection to mainline pilots flying alongside us but certainly not if they are being paid sh*tloads more for the same job. Either on BACX terms and conditions EQUALLY or BA T+C's EQUALLY. Such a disparity would create a massive CRM issue at the very least.
Let the BACC have the kahunas to go back to the previous 'gentleman's agreement' or else let us do our own thing without the financial burden of BAR swallowing up the profits we ARE making!
Sorry, but you have quite unwittingly further supported the cause of all BACX pilots. BA T+C's are (or used to be) the industry standard, and BA wants to divide and rule being the salient points. EXACTLY!!!! Approximately 6 weeks ago, both the BACC and BACXCC believed that BA t+c's for BOTH companies would negate the scope argument from the RJ issue. Now (for reasons unknown, but assumed to be BA management pressure) the BACC has devised a more divisive version of scope which denies any BACX captain, including those currently 146 qualified, access to the RJ and God-forbid if you are a turboprop driver (in either seat) you shall be banished to the wastelands forever! Pardon me for being pedantic, but my two mates who are currently 747-400 skippers (and who agree with me on this debate!) both got their commands on the budgie in the highlands and islands. (For those who are mainline, and fighting this 'debate' without this 'knowledge' the budgie HS748 TURBOPROP as well as the BAeATP were 2 PROP aircraft operated by British Airways).
We would have no objection to mainline pilots flying alongside us but certainly not if they are being paid sh*tloads more for the same job. Either on BACX terms and conditions EQUALLY or BA T+C's EQUALLY. Such a disparity would create a massive CRM issue at the very least.
Let the BACC have the kahunas to go back to the previous 'gentleman's agreement' or else let us do our own thing without the financial burden of BAR swallowing up the profits we ARE making!
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ETOPS I do not doubt for one minute what you heard from the individual concerned.
His indiscretions are legendary and his grasp on events have been proven materially inaccurate in the recent past to the substantial irritation of his boss.
I heard that the skids are under him personaly and I very much doubt if he'll be given a second chance to screw CX again having failed so spectacularly with version one FSS.
A drowning man clutching at straws............
His indiscretions are legendary and his grasp on events have been proven materially inaccurate in the recent past to the substantial irritation of his boss.
I heard that the skids are under him personaly and I very much doubt if he'll be given a second chance to screw CX again having failed so spectacularly with version one FSS.
A drowning man clutching at straws............
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On the RJ issue (oh no,not again,I hear you cry!).It`s not a BA pilot against BACX pilot issue.The real issue is that all the pilots that will fly these aircraft should be on the same terms and conditions and paid the same to do the same job.That`s a very reasonable argument. If the aircraft are to be operated under BACX AOC then their t&cs should be used for all the crews,better still, put us all on BA t&cs and i doubt any pilots affected would argue against that(even if it`s never going to happen).Realistically,would anyone be happy to do the job for a lot less money than your workmates ? Not bloody likely,we would fight for equal pay! Either keep the RJs in BA and pay the crews BA wages to do it (which is unlikely due to it being harder to make a profit and BA bosses wanting it to operate as as part of BACX) or give us a level playing field.
We`d all like to stay where we want,but we`re in the wrong business for that kind of stability.
We`d all like to stay where we want,but we`re in the wrong business for that kind of stability.
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This topic was not started as an agrument over the RJ100. As it says it was about he forthcoming base closures!
Now maybe some of you out there could shed some light on rumours which crew are talking about.
Dash 8 to be taken out of SOU again and replaced by 145's? Those Dash 8 aicraft to be put back into NCL to replace the sold J41 aircraft. Also heading north is an RJ or another jet to operate the BRU service onbehalf of SN Brussels. Whats actually going to happen to PLH, LBA and EDI and what are Eastern planning to do with all those J41's?
And is there any truth that all is to be revealed on the 4 December? Future Size and Shape Part II!!!!!!
Now maybe some of you out there could shed some light on rumours which crew are talking about.
Dash 8 to be taken out of SOU again and replaced by 145's? Those Dash 8 aicraft to be put back into NCL to replace the sold J41 aircraft. Also heading north is an RJ or another jet to operate the BRU service onbehalf of SN Brussels. Whats actually going to happen to PLH, LBA and EDI and what are Eastern planning to do with all those J41's?
And is there any truth that all is to be revealed on the 4 December? Future Size and Shape Part II!!!!!!
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So many of the rumours just don't make sense.
1st, if there was gonna be an announcement of the 4th you would hope that the management would let us know that this is the day that our destinies would be revealed.
2nd, although I believe that Eastern ARE actually negotiating to take some of the 41's, unless we give them away I can't see a company that has traditionally operated cheap and cheerful J31's being interested in our very expensive (lease wise) J41's.
3rd Can Euromanx afford any J41's at all.
4th The devisive attitude regarding the RJ's will scupper any hope of a realistic timetable being met for their introduction. The old demarkation disputes of the 70's that crippled virtually every worthwhile British industry to the point of bankruptcy will stop us all getting on with our job of flying aeroplanes (full of passengers hopefully) and enjoying the company of like minded individuals.
I love my job (BACX), don't give a flying f##k about the bulk of the small minded insular arguments that abound on this thread. All I really want is a bit of security, loads of flying, and enough money at the end of each month the keep the bills paid, the other half in frocks and the kids in the latest away kit. I reckon originally thats why the bulk of you got into this game as well.... but you lost sight of that.
1st, if there was gonna be an announcement of the 4th you would hope that the management would let us know that this is the day that our destinies would be revealed.
2nd, although I believe that Eastern ARE actually negotiating to take some of the 41's, unless we give them away I can't see a company that has traditionally operated cheap and cheerful J31's being interested in our very expensive (lease wise) J41's.
3rd Can Euromanx afford any J41's at all.
4th The devisive attitude regarding the RJ's will scupper any hope of a realistic timetable being met for their introduction. The old demarkation disputes of the 70's that crippled virtually every worthwhile British industry to the point of bankruptcy will stop us all getting on with our job of flying aeroplanes (full of passengers hopefully) and enjoying the company of like minded individuals.
I love my job (BACX), don't give a flying f##k about the bulk of the small minded insular arguments that abound on this thread. All I really want is a bit of security, loads of flying, and enough money at the end of each month the keep the bills paid, the other half in frocks and the kids in the latest away kit. I reckon originally thats why the bulk of you got into this game as well.... but you lost sight of that.
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Announcement on the 4th.....
Ba have decided to resolve the RJ and regional aircraft issue by setting up a number of regional subsidiaries to operate these aircraft on their behalf on a franchise basis. Each of these subsidiaries will be managed independantly to ensure the management team are specialists and focussed on their individual markets, and thus make a profit, with costs realistic for the markets and aircraft types. These subsidiaries to be named "Brymon", "British Regional", "CityFlyer"........
Ba have decided to resolve the RJ and regional aircraft issue by setting up a number of regional subsidiaries to operate these aircraft on their behalf on a franchise basis. Each of these subsidiaries will be managed independantly to ensure the management team are specialists and focussed on their individual markets, and thus make a profit, with costs realistic for the markets and aircraft types. These subsidiaries to be named "Brymon", "British Regional", "CityFlyer"........
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In Trim
When what we are talking about here is the future of bl**dy good people in BACE, I don't find your post particularly amusing!
I think what is happening here is a sad testament to the management of BA, particularly if some of the rumours and speculation turn out to be true.
I don't know if the senior management realise just how good the people at the sharp end are in BACE? I hasten to add that I include FC, CC and the engineers who do a brilliant job, particularly when it comes to keeping the J41s flying! I also include the BA Cadets who have really enjoyed working with everyone in BACE and deserve better than the latest balllot paper asking for a vote on them being returned immediately to Mainline! Their secondment to BACE was not their choice but they have contributed positively and certainly benefitted from and enjoyed working with, some great people. I know many who will be sad to leave when the time comes.
Back to the thread - come on BA? Get the politics sorted out, put some honesty, openness and integrity into your management of BACE and give your people the chance to create a highly successful regional airline which it can and should be!
Here endeth the lesson!
I think what is happening here is a sad testament to the management of BA, particularly if some of the rumours and speculation turn out to be true.
I don't know if the senior management realise just how good the people at the sharp end are in BACE? I hasten to add that I include FC, CC and the engineers who do a brilliant job, particularly when it comes to keeping the J41s flying! I also include the BA Cadets who have really enjoyed working with everyone in BACE and deserve better than the latest balllot paper asking for a vote on them being returned immediately to Mainline! Their secondment to BACE was not their choice but they have contributed positively and certainly benefitted from and enjoyed working with, some great people. I know many who will be sad to leave when the time comes.
Back to the thread - come on BA? Get the politics sorted out, put some honesty, openness and integrity into your management of BACE and give your people the chance to create a highly successful regional airline which it can and should be!
Here endeth the lesson!
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Redline.
Your last statement was pretty much Spot On!!
That's about all that most of us want aswell.
This company's turning out to be a fu@*ing big cluedo game!
Who dunnit,with what & where?
TDLF,in the management room with a "BIG" bloody knife!
I win then!!
Your last statement was pretty much Spot On!!
That's about all that most of us want aswell.
This company's turning out to be a fu@*ing big cluedo game!
Who dunnit,with what & where?
TDLF,in the management room with a "BIG" bloody knife!
I win then!!
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Sarl,
The post was not meant to offend......I have been part of one of the franchises in the past, and like many others had the rug pulled out from under me by BA! I know from experience what that uncertainty feels like, especially when you know how good that company was before BA started ******ing around with it!!
The post was purely to re-iterate my views that BA have made a number of extremely fundamental mistakes in relation to management of short-haul in the past few years, which they will no doubt live to regret. Skippy was poorly advised when he first arrived.....not sure he'd make the same decisions with hindsight.
In trim.
The post was not meant to offend......I have been part of one of the franchises in the past, and like many others had the rug pulled out from under me by BA! I know from experience what that uncertainty feels like, especially when you know how good that company was before BA started ******ing around with it!!
The post was purely to re-iterate my views that BA have made a number of extremely fundamental mistakes in relation to management of short-haul in the past few years, which they will no doubt live to regret. Skippy was poorly advised when he first arrived.....not sure he'd make the same decisions with hindsight.
In trim.
