The Atlantic Glider revisited - official report released (Merged)
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MAYDAY: Flying on Empty - episode air times
Mayday: Flying on Empty
An Air Transat Airbus runs out of fuel over the Atlantic and has to glide to a power-free landing; explore the causes that contributed to the near catastrophe and how the crew landed safely.
Mayday: Flying on Empty
An Air Transat Airbus runs out of fuel over the Atlantic and has to glide to a power-free landing; explore the causes that contributed to the near catastrophe and how the crew landed safely.
Iconoclast
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Mayday-Air Transat Glider
Please note that the times shown in the preceding post are for the Showing of the Mayday program in Canada. This same program will be aired in the UK, France, Germany and Italy. Check your local listings.
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There is no doubt in anybody's mind that it took a pretty neat bit of flying to get an aircraft from 17 minutes out with no fuel to on the ground with no injuries.
HOWEVER...
It took pretty questionable airmanship on the part of the captain to find himself in that situation in the first place (even allowing for Air Transat Engineering's poor config control which caused the fuel pipe/hydraulic line chafe in the first place).
It was a fiendish bit of good luck that the Azores are where they are. Another 1/2 hour further out and the story would have ended a lot differently...
HOWEVER...
It took pretty questionable airmanship on the part of the captain to find himself in that situation in the first place (even allowing for Air Transat Engineering's poor config control which caused the fuel pipe/hydraulic line chafe in the first place).
It was a fiendish bit of good luck that the Azores are where they are. Another 1/2 hour further out and the story would have ended a lot differently...
Iconoclast
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To: Plastique
Watch the Mayday program to see who was at fault.
(even allowing for Air Transat Engineering's poor config control which caused the fuel pipe/hydraulic line chafe in the first place).
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Accolades to this crew is an absolute outrage !
It is plainly obvious that they failed to monitor their fuel quantitiy closely enough, and when disparity found, failed to keep fuel sources isolated. A failure of basic airmanship. That they very luckily survived this incident is mute point. These jokers should be thrown in jail for a very long time for placing their good fare paying passengers lives at very significant risk through their negligence ....
It is plainly obvious that they failed to monitor their fuel quantitiy closely enough, and when disparity found, failed to keep fuel sources isolated. A failure of basic airmanship. That they very luckily survived this incident is mute point. These jokers should be thrown in jail for a very long time for placing their good fare paying passengers lives at very significant risk through their negligence ....
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aardvark2zz
I don't know much about Airbus and I may be incorrect here, but I doubt angle of attack was used as there is no way of measuring it, pitch attitude yes.
On large jet aircraft I have flown we have used IAS for Min drag, you have to remember that this speed is not fixed and will change with weight reduction.
I don't know much about Airbus and I may be incorrect here, but I doubt angle of attack was used as there is no way of measuring it, pitch attitude yes.
On large jet aircraft I have flown we have used IAS for Min drag, you have to remember that this speed is not fixed and will change with weight reduction.
Winston,
Were it as simple as we would all undoubtedly like, discussion would have ended months ago. It seems it's not, and it hasn't, so why not wait a little prior to the invective? In due course this thread will give loads of room for opinion but why not wait a while for the scope for same to narrow down just a bit. Unless, of course, you have inside knowlege beyond - well beyond - that of posters here.
Were it as simple as we would all undoubtedly like, discussion would have ended months ago. It seems it's not, and it hasn't, so why not wait a little prior to the invective? In due course this thread will give loads of room for opinion but why not wait a while for the scope for same to narrow down just a bit. Unless, of course, you have inside knowlege beyond - well beyond - that of posters here.
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Crew fuel management may not necessarily be the main issue here.
When the leak sprung, it gushed out, soaking the oil pipes, leading to oil temperature and pressure alerts. They spent a good 7 or 8 minutes dealing with that, consulting base etc. before clearing it. Once cleared, next message was "fuel imbalance", another hardly ever seen message. If no leak suspected, says manual, open crossfeed. They had recently checked fuel, nothing odd found, opened crossfeed and then the rest is history.
One oddity is that if the Fuel Imbalance warning is your first warning of a leak, the statement "if no leak is suspected" doesn't make sense (circular logic). Perhaps they should have done a manual fuel check ater that warning appeared (we don't know yet if they did or not as the official report is not yet out) but the manual nowhere states that this warning could be due to a fuel leak.
Another oddity is that the A330, despite automating almost everything except meal service, does not compare fuel remaining to fuel loaded against the rate of burn. Rumours suggest (anybody know for sure out there?) Airbus is adding this function to the automation now.
When the leak sprung, it gushed out, soaking the oil pipes, leading to oil temperature and pressure alerts. They spent a good 7 or 8 minutes dealing with that, consulting base etc. before clearing it. Once cleared, next message was "fuel imbalance", another hardly ever seen message. If no leak suspected, says manual, open crossfeed. They had recently checked fuel, nothing odd found, opened crossfeed and then the rest is history.
One oddity is that if the Fuel Imbalance warning is your first warning of a leak, the statement "if no leak is suspected" doesn't make sense (circular logic). Perhaps they should have done a manual fuel check ater that warning appeared (we don't know yet if they did or not as the official report is not yet out) but the manual nowhere states that this warning could be due to a fuel leak.
Another oddity is that the A330, despite automating almost everything except meal service, does not compare fuel remaining to fuel loaded against the rate of burn. Rumours suggest (anybody know for sure out there?) Airbus is adding this function to the automation now.
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If the crew had referred to the checklist they may have read some of the points made in the above post. My information is that the crew did not use the checklist in reference to the fuel leak problem. The Captain opened the crossfeed line - or should I say - crossfeed in-line (airbus speak) without reference to any checklist.
Furthermore, any professional crew when confronted with an abnormal situation carries out the checklist and performs each item on the list at that time. You don't just assume the fuel is OK because you recently did a check. It takes just a few seconds and some simple math to do a check.
Captain Piche's poor CRM knowledge or acceptance was a main contributing factor. It will be interesting to see if this is pointed out in the official accident report.
A310Guy
Furthermore, any professional crew when confronted with an abnormal situation carries out the checklist and performs each item on the list at that time. You don't just assume the fuel is OK because you recently did a check. It takes just a few seconds and some simple math to do a check.
Captain Piche's poor CRM knowledge or acceptance was a main contributing factor. It will be interesting to see if this is pointed out in the official accident report.
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If Captain Piche was at the controls of destiny, then maybe the most important question needs to asked, who was at the controls of the fuel cross feed switch.
The reason he has struggled to deal with the subsequent accolades is because he knows how he got into that position.
The reason he has struggled to deal with the subsequent accolades is because he knows how he got into that position.
Iconoclast
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How much clearance is enough?
The root cause of the loss of fuel will soon be disclosed. Watch the Mayday program on Discovery in your viewing area. Sometime in October.
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I have noticed a propensity among some of the correspondants of pprune to generally seeks to critizise the actions of other pilots whenever the opportunity arises, particularly in cases such as this.
Irrespective of what may have been the root cause of the incident, the pilots clearly pulled off a display of outstanding skill and airmanship - and certainly a feat that only a very tiny minority from our profession would be able to repeat given the circumstances.
Of course we would all love to believe that we are excellent pilots, and could indeed have pulled off the same feat - but in reality most of us would never have rescued themselves from such a situation, IRRESPECTIVE of what may or may not have been the initial cause.
I sense that those correspondants who choose to draw to our attention possible ommissions made by the crew are simply those whose jealousy has got the better of them - or perhaps it's their insecurity - they haven't yet had the chance to display the skill they are not sure they posses!
Irrespective of what may have been the root cause of the incident, the pilots clearly pulled off a display of outstanding skill and airmanship - and certainly a feat that only a very tiny minority from our profession would be able to repeat given the circumstances.
Of course we would all love to believe that we are excellent pilots, and could indeed have pulled off the same feat - but in reality most of us would never have rescued themselves from such a situation, IRRESPECTIVE of what may or may not have been the initial cause.
I sense that those correspondants who choose to draw to our attention possible ommissions made by the crew are simply those whose jealousy has got the better of them - or perhaps it's their insecurity - they haven't yet had the chance to display the skill they are not sure they posses!
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Just watched what I thought was quite an informative/objective/ non sensationalist program about this affair on France 5, in French (funnily enough) at about 5pm local time this evening.
First a disclamer:
1- I do not know if the show I saw is the one talked about above, though Discovery Canada/France 5 was mentioned in the credits.
2- My French is still not 100%, but I understand it pretty well having lived here for 2 years now.
The thrust of the program appeared to be that the crew thought they had a computer glitch, they only knew they were losing fuel just before the engines quit and they were damn good pilots to rescue the situation afterwards. The initial screwy(as they saw it) temp readings on the engine were checked with base and they were told moniter situation, there is no problem. Later fuel imbalance was then regarded with the initial idea of a computer glitch firmly in the forefront of their minds, the reconstruction showed them following procedures & also getting cabin crew to look in the back and see if fuel was venting overboard and only then opening fuel crossfeed. This was then left open for the system to stabilise bearing in mind they were thinking computer glitch, not fuel loss.
The tone of the show was summed up by passengers comments to the question ‘are the crew heros?’, Reply’s along the lines of – ‘Heros no, but regardless of whether they made any mistakes, brilliant pilots who’s flying skills that day saved our lives’.
Incidentally, one thing mentioned was that ‘the only interested party to hold the crew responsible for the incident is Airbus Industry….who have now made changes to their aircraft fuel management software…’
Anyone else also see this program? Preferably with a better command of French than I? - I now want to see the show in English !!
First a disclamer:
1- I do not know if the show I saw is the one talked about above, though Discovery Canada/France 5 was mentioned in the credits.
2- My French is still not 100%, but I understand it pretty well having lived here for 2 years now.
The thrust of the program appeared to be that the crew thought they had a computer glitch, they only knew they were losing fuel just before the engines quit and they were damn good pilots to rescue the situation afterwards. The initial screwy(as they saw it) temp readings on the engine were checked with base and they were told moniter situation, there is no problem. Later fuel imbalance was then regarded with the initial idea of a computer glitch firmly in the forefront of their minds, the reconstruction showed them following procedures & also getting cabin crew to look in the back and see if fuel was venting overboard and only then opening fuel crossfeed. This was then left open for the system to stabilise bearing in mind they were thinking computer glitch, not fuel loss.
The tone of the show was summed up by passengers comments to the question ‘are the crew heros?’, Reply’s along the lines of – ‘Heros no, but regardless of whether they made any mistakes, brilliant pilots who’s flying skills that day saved our lives’.
Incidentally, one thing mentioned was that ‘the only interested party to hold the crew responsible for the incident is Airbus Industry….who have now made changes to their aircraft fuel management software…’
Anyone else also see this program? Preferably with a better command of French than I? - I now want to see the show in English !!
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Irrespective of what may have been the root cause of the incident, the pilots clearly pulled off a display of outstanding skill and airmanship - and certainly a feat that only a very tiny minority from our profession would be able to repeat given the circumstances.
.....well. let me see, next time I'm a good fare paying pax across the atlantic, I'm gonna hope like hell that I got an insecure, less skillful, less excellent pilot that can manage his fuel situation rather than take me for an unnecessary joyride in a several thosand tonne piece of metal...hotshot or not..
they only knew they were losing fuel just before the engines quit and they were damn good pilots to rescue the situation afterwards.
.....did not notice fuel quantity reducing? did not notice lateral trim inbalance? did not consider fuel leak (until too late)? 'computer glitch' is wishful thinking...
This is a blatant display of incompetance and negligence. This crew should be locked up for a very long time for time for placing unecessary loss of life risk on the good pax. That they skillfully, luckiliy, and selfishly (saving their own ass) pulled off the glide feat is of no consequence to their lack of credibility. 
Oops pardon me
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Armchair pilots,retrospect and I know best
Reading some of the comments on here about this heroic act makes me wonder if all aircrew have some sort of self righteous brain cell implanted at flight school.
You have all trained for disaster days but fortunately only the few who have experienced such trauma can comment on how they would actually react.
Fear is a key player in these events even to the most experienced of crews.
He should have done this or that is all very well in the comfort of your cockpiit while waiting for a slot.
Give the guy a break. Everyone lived to tell the tale and even if he didnt follow every procedure in the book,his airmanship saved the day.
Would you have coped any better? Lets hope you never have to find out.
Coopervane & Bear
You have all trained for disaster days but fortunately only the few who have experienced such trauma can comment on how they would actually react.
Fear is a key player in these events even to the most experienced of crews.
He should have done this or that is all very well in the comfort of your cockpiit while waiting for a slot.
Give the guy a break. Everyone lived to tell the tale and even if he didnt follow every procedure in the book,his airmanship saved the day.
Would you have coped any better? Lets hope you never have to find out.
Coopervane & Bear
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As my wife would say Wintsun you really are a dick !
You really do have a chip on your shoulder don't you?
I guess you are pissed off that you were not on board to save the day, and I am sure that given your outstanding skills you would have.
From what I have read from your previous posts all you do is whine and criticise, nothing ever constructive escapes your pearly whites.
You really do have a chip on your shoulder don't you?
I guess you are pissed off that you were not on board to save the day, and I am sure that given your outstanding skills you would have.
From what I have read from your previous posts all you do is whine and criticise, nothing ever constructive escapes your pearly whites.
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Give the guy a break.
Everyone lived to tell the tale
small comfort....kind of like saying its ok the pilot penetrated a severe thunderstorm, cause the wings didnt break off and we lived...this time..
even if he didnt follow every procedure in the book,his airmanship saved the day.
Jokers like this should be held accountable for their negligence.