British Airways Pan and return to Heathrow
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British Airways Pan and return to Heathrow
At around 23.03 last night a BA Boeing 777 had to return to Heathrow due to a strange sound coming from below the rudder pedals.
The PNF reported that they had to dump fuel for 15 mins before making an approach in 30 mins.
At 23.30 they reported that they were going to have to make a Pan call and that they will need someone to make an inspection after landing prior to taxing in.
They requested 27L for landing but the controller replied that it was not available unless they really needed it.
According to the PNF, a loud tapping sound could be heard somewhere below the rudder pedals but could not determine whether the sound was coming from inside or outside.
He also mentioned that it could have something to do with a rubber seal in the nose gear.
They left OCK at 23.32 and said that due to the nature of the problem, they were not going to exceed 250 knots. They also said that they were going to do an autoland on 27R
Speedbird 083 made an unevenful landing at around 23.55.
The PNF reported that they had to dump fuel for 15 mins before making an approach in 30 mins.
At 23.30 they reported that they were going to have to make a Pan call and that they will need someone to make an inspection after landing prior to taxing in.
They requested 27L for landing but the controller replied that it was not available unless they really needed it.
According to the PNF, a loud tapping sound could be heard somewhere below the rudder pedals but could not determine whether the sound was coming from inside or outside.
He also mentioned that it could have something to do with a rubber seal in the nose gear.
They left OCK at 23.32 and said that due to the nature of the problem, they were not going to exceed 250 knots. They also said that they were going to do an autoland on 27R
Speedbird 083 made an unevenful landing at around 23.55.
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<<They left OCK at 23.32 and said that due to the nature of the problem, they were not going to exceed 250 knots.>>
On the intermediate approach? I'm not surprised!
On the intermediate approach? I'm not surprised!
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Just out of curiuosity (spelling anyone?), since my own breed of flying machine is not equipped with fuel dumping, would fuel be dumped during the hold or would they do it over the Channel?
With the prevailing winds last night it would be somewhat of an irrelevance where the dumping was carried out as the results could have ended up anywhere. There is no set guidance as to where such actions are to be taken - a mutually-agreed extended holding pattern is often prescribed to minimise the impact on the crew and ATC operations alike, but, at the end of the day, if needs must ......
Numpo,
Quote: "No set guidance". Isn't there something in the ATCO's bible about fuel dumping? [i.e. - Preferably over the sea, but with a minimum recommended height if it has to be over land, depending on the season (winter or summer) etc.]
P.S. Anyone remember that classic radio comedy sketch 'The Test Pilot', with Tony Hancock and Kenneth Williams? - deja vu BAW 083 !!
Quote: "No set guidance". Isn't there something in the ATCO's bible about fuel dumping? [i.e. - Preferably over the sea, but with a minimum recommended height if it has to be over land, depending on the season (winter or summer) etc.]
P.S. Anyone remember that classic radio comedy sketch 'The Test Pilot', with Tony Hancock and Kenneth Williams? - deja vu BAW 083 !!
Last edited by spekesoftly; 19th Oct 2002 at 08:45.
Heard them on 129.42 (SAM SIDS I believe), so they were certainly beyond the TMA (and probably over water) whilst dumping. Didn't catch their level, but were initially cleared FL130 direct OCK from their hold, so would have been at least at medium level whilst dumping.
Speed was <250Kts IAS for the whole descent, as apparently the "noise" came back if they went faster.
It was pretty windy, W'ly @ 50kts as they were joining the ILS 27R @ 3000'.
Speed was <250Kts IAS for the whole descent, as apparently the "noise" came back if they went faster.
It was pretty windy, W'ly @ 50kts as they were joining the ILS 27R @ 3000'.
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From the UK MATS Pt 1......
12 Fuel Jettisoning
12.1 Pilots of aircraft in flight are permitted to jettison fuel in an emergency. The decision to jettison rests solely with the pilot but he may request guidance from air traffic control.
12.2 Controllers are to recommend that jettisoning of fuel should be carried out:
a) over the sea, if at all possible; or
b) above 10 000 feet agl.
12.3 Exceptionally, if a) or b) is operationally impracticable or inconsistent with safety, fuel may be jettisoned above 7000 feet agl in winter and above 4000 feet agl in summer.
For fuel to be jettisoned below these levels the situation must be unavoidable.
12.4 A vertical separation of at least 1000 feet between aircraft should be maintained.
WF.
12 Fuel Jettisoning
12.1 Pilots of aircraft in flight are permitted to jettison fuel in an emergency. The decision to jettison rests solely with the pilot but he may request guidance from air traffic control.
12.2 Controllers are to recommend that jettisoning of fuel should be carried out:
a) over the sea, if at all possible; or
b) above 10 000 feet agl.
12.3 Exceptionally, if a) or b) is operationally impracticable or inconsistent with safety, fuel may be jettisoned above 7000 feet agl in winter and above 4000 feet agl in summer.
For fuel to be jettisoned below these levels the situation must be unavoidable.
12.4 A vertical separation of at least 1000 feet between aircraft should be maintained.
WF.
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FL130 standard, as is direct OCK at that time of night, especially on a PAN.
Most of Sector 20 (129.425) is over the sea, and extended vectoring can take place to save a 'holding' situation so that separation is easier.
One point, our bible states that the (standard) separation of 1000 ft must be maintained, but would you really only want to pass 1000ft BELOW a dumping a/c, as it doesn't state anything different???
Most of Sector 20 (129.425) is over the sea, and extended vectoring can take place to save a 'holding' situation so that separation is easier.
One point, our bible states that the (standard) separation of 1000 ft must be maintained, but would you really only want to pass 1000ft BELOW a dumping a/c, as it doesn't state anything different???
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spekesoftly
Apparently the recording and transcript do not survive...but some remember.
"The Secretary of State for Education and Employment (Mr. David Blunkett): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a
Second time.
In asking the House to give the Bill a Second Reading, I am reminded of a famous "Hancock's Half Hour" episode--which I am
sure that you, Madam Speaker, will remember--called "The Test Pilot". As the aeroplane was flying along, there was a knocking
on the outside of the fuselage--it was the mechanic, trying to get in. Today--although I thought that I would be playing the role of
the test pilot--I find myself in the position of the mechanic, as part of the wing has fallen off, and the fuselage is in considerably bad
order. Nevertheless, the Bill is still flying, and it will be our job in Committee to ensure that repairs are done while the Bill is still in
the air."
"The Secretary of State for Education and Employment (Mr. David Blunkett): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a
Second time.
In asking the House to give the Bill a Second Reading, I am reminded of a famous "Hancock's Half Hour" episode--which I am
sure that you, Madam Speaker, will remember--called "The Test Pilot". As the aeroplane was flying along, there was a knocking
on the outside of the fuselage--it was the mechanic, trying to get in. Today--although I thought that I would be playing the role of
the test pilot--I find myself in the position of the mechanic, as part of the wing has fallen off, and the fuselage is in considerably bad
order. Nevertheless, the Bill is still flying, and it will be our job in Committee to ensure that repairs are done while the Bill is still in
the air."
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I'm dying to hear the other shoe drop.
Does anybody know what the tapping noise was.?
Was it the push back guy who just couldn't get his headset disconnected or what.
The last time I heard a tapping noise like that ( along time ago mind you) was a key with a large metal tag left in a baggage locker door.
Does anybody know what the tapping noise was.?
Was it the push back guy who just couldn't get his headset disconnected or what.
The last time I heard a tapping noise like that ( along time ago mind you) was a key with a large metal tag left in a baggage locker door.
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It does, indeed, evapourate-sooner or later.
I was once dumped upon by a SAR heli on it's way to a close in emergency. The machine passed almost directly overhead at about 500 feet agl with avtur pouring out of a dump valve. All that reached the ground was a strong smell of kerosene.
However, that was on a good day.
A friend tells the story of an extreme low level dump on a four engined piston following engine failure on take off from a bush airfield . When they read the evening paper the headline was "Mysterious fire destroys village huts near airport."
Another friend of mine was observing an RB47 taking fuel from a tanker when the hose broke. Almost neat kerosene went into an air intake and...boom..the whole aircraft blew up.
I seem to remember that a 707 was once lost during a reported dumping session that entailed flying near a Cu Nim.
And of course the old apocryphal story of the USA based 707 taking off from LHR who advised air traffic that he had lost an engine and was dumping immediately, heading towards Windsor. Air Traffic immediately responded informing him that he could not dump on that track and the captain's reply was reported as:
"Better call the lady, collect, and tell her that she either gets the fuel-or the entire g*******d airplane!"
I certainly always followed the advice to never dump in a holding pattern, particularly when descending, in case I flew into my own kerosene vapour trail.
Fuel dumping is a serious event and it may be safer to land heavy.
I was once dumped upon by a SAR heli on it's way to a close in emergency. The machine passed almost directly overhead at about 500 feet agl with avtur pouring out of a dump valve. All that reached the ground was a strong smell of kerosene.
However, that was on a good day.
A friend tells the story of an extreme low level dump on a four engined piston following engine failure on take off from a bush airfield . When they read the evening paper the headline was "Mysterious fire destroys village huts near airport."
Another friend of mine was observing an RB47 taking fuel from a tanker when the hose broke. Almost neat kerosene went into an air intake and...boom..the whole aircraft blew up.
I seem to remember that a 707 was once lost during a reported dumping session that entailed flying near a Cu Nim.
And of course the old apocryphal story of the USA based 707 taking off from LHR who advised air traffic that he had lost an engine and was dumping immediately, heading towards Windsor. Air Traffic immediately responded informing him that he could not dump on that track and the captain's reply was reported as:
"Better call the lady, collect, and tell her that she either gets the fuel-or the entire g*******d airplane!"
I certainly always followed the advice to never dump in a holding pattern, particularly when descending, in case I flew into my own kerosene vapour trail.
Fuel dumping is a serious event and it may be safer to land heavy.
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The 083 was going to Abuja in Nigeria. The engineers believed the case to be a door fault. The aircraft returned to stand T07 and it was intended to transfer all pax to T06 but the flightcrew were too shaken so pax went to hotels.
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<it was intended to transfer all pax to T06 but the flightcrew were too shaken so pax went to hotels.>
I think you could have been a bit more sensitive in your 'statement'. Let's have a look at this- 2 pilots, airborne at about 2300 LT for Nigeria, flying for an hour or so, return, aeroplane change. Exactly HOW LONG would you like 2 pilots on duty overnight? I rather suspect they would be outraged at your 'too shaken' expression. From all I have read, 2 professionals handled a relatively minor technical problem sensibly, returning to the airport where repairs can be most efficiently carried out (like HOME BASE), and not surprisingly, unloading all those passengers (and baggage) and loading them onto a new aeroplane (and fueling it, catering it) can not really be done at 3-5am (when there are no such staff available anyway- it IS the middleof the night!). Quite unreal- I expect the operation was cancelled to the next day. Be very careful what and how you say it- if it was me involved, I would have been seeing a Solicitor today about your report, and your 'anonymity' in Pprune will not last 5 minutes once legal people start sniffing around.
As a matter of interest, it is now becoming recognised that after involvement in even a relatively minor problem (uncomplicated engine failures etc), it is better not to immediately work pilots- as in get them airborne again to destination as soon as possible. there have been several cases of delayed shock where people have felt most uncomfortable continuing. We are not in any 'war' situation where all out effort is required, and so like if you bump your car on the way to work, sometimes it is more sensible to take the day off rather than press on, particualrly if you are going to be responsible for a large number of passengers. A little more sense and sensitivity from you would reasonably have been expected.
I think you could have been a bit more sensitive in your 'statement'. Let's have a look at this- 2 pilots, airborne at about 2300 LT for Nigeria, flying for an hour or so, return, aeroplane change. Exactly HOW LONG would you like 2 pilots on duty overnight? I rather suspect they would be outraged at your 'too shaken' expression. From all I have read, 2 professionals handled a relatively minor technical problem sensibly, returning to the airport where repairs can be most efficiently carried out (like HOME BASE), and not surprisingly, unloading all those passengers (and baggage) and loading them onto a new aeroplane (and fueling it, catering it) can not really be done at 3-5am (when there are no such staff available anyway- it IS the middleof the night!). Quite unreal- I expect the operation was cancelled to the next day. Be very careful what and how you say it- if it was me involved, I would have been seeing a Solicitor today about your report, and your 'anonymity' in Pprune will not last 5 minutes once legal people start sniffing around.
As a matter of interest, it is now becoming recognised that after involvement in even a relatively minor problem (uncomplicated engine failures etc), it is better not to immediately work pilots- as in get them airborne again to destination as soon as possible. there have been several cases of delayed shock where people have felt most uncomfortable continuing. We are not in any 'war' situation where all out effort is required, and so like if you bump your car on the way to work, sometimes it is more sensible to take the day off rather than press on, particualrly if you are going to be responsible for a large number of passengers. A little more sense and sensitivity from you would reasonably have been expected.
Controversial, moi?
Rollingthunder
you said:
Were you referring to The Test Pilot or Mr. Blunkett's speech?
The reason I ask is that I believe I still have a record (45rpm single) of it at my mother's house (Tony Hancock that is)!
you said:
Apparently the recording and transcript do not survive...but some remember.
The reason I ask is that I believe I still have a record (45rpm single) of it at my mother's house (Tony Hancock that is)!
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M.Mouse
The Test Pilot. Wouldn't a 45 be too short to have the whole sketch? Anyway, if you do have it, there's a web sight that would like you to share it.
http://www.tonyhancock.org.uk/radio1-5.html
The Test Pilot. Wouldn't a 45 be too short to have the whole sketch? Anyway, if you do have it, there's a web sight that would like you to share it.
http://www.tonyhancock.org.uk/radio1-5.html