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Lufthansa Cockpit doors open for flight!

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Lufthansa Cockpit doors open for flight!

Old 1st Oct 2002, 15:08
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Thumbs down Lufthansa Cockpit doors open for flight!

Having just looked through some pics on www.airliners.net i'm still amazed that loads of pictures of the flight decks taken by pax are still appearing.... what even more surprising is this.... :


I find it pathetic.... what are these pilots trying to prove?? I would hate to fly along and be looked at picking my teeth and scratching away!

Surely after 9/11 lessons must learnt.
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Old 1st Oct 2002, 15:49
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Mooney, for Gods sake GROW UP.

You don't know WHY the door was open, do you? Maybe coffee for the crew, or maybe a "physiological break" (both of which are permitted by our own CAA).

Oh, and guess what... all the Sept 11 aircraft had locked doors as a matter of SOP. Didn't stop the subsequent events, did it?

Back when you were in nappies, the rest of us were only too happy to keep our cockpit doors open (especially on small turboprops). The passengers liked it, you see. Nothing ever happened.

Now, one of the greatest pleasures in flying (inviting non-pilots to sit in the jumpseat) is lost to us forever. It made their year, and it made us very happy to make them happy.

So please, a little less of the self-righteous indignation, OK? it is misplaced and offensive.
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Old 1st Oct 2002, 16:41
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Why do you flame him? Read his profile - he is a professional pilot like the rest of us!

What's more he he speaks good sense. Why let everyone know when the door is going to be opened? If it is open long enough for someone to take a photo it is open too long or perhaps that doesn't allow time for all the passengers to see the Captain <

To use the excuse that 9/11 aircraft had a locked door is crass - the accepted hijack procedure then was passive compliance as you well know and that is why the doors were opened. Those days are gone for ever.


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Old 1st Oct 2002, 17:04
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If you don't like any companies sucurity/ flight deck door policy then vote with your feet.

Don't fly with them!

Easy really, and the airline soon gets the message.
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Old 1st Oct 2002, 17:27
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Picture altered?

Of course there is always the possibility that the picture has been altered. What is the partial blue circle doing on the right side of the doorway???
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Old 1st Oct 2002, 17:36
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Question Altered?

Altered picture?

You mean like the Star or the Sun or the National Enquirer would do?
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Old 1st Oct 2002, 18:11
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I was on a BA flight recently and the Captain took a walk down the whole aeroplane during the flight.
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Old 1st Oct 2002, 18:39
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You have my full support on this one this unlocked flight deck door thing has all the makings of a tabloid newspaper story , no one leaves the door unlocked these days and entry to the flight deck is strictly controled and if you think that just because you cant see the security mesures they are not in place then it is time that you took a re think ! .

And why the hell should the captain not be free to inspect any part of the aircraft as he sees fit .

MOR is correct when he says that a few people here need to "grow up".
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Old 1st Oct 2002, 18:39
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Why the 'attack' on Mooney? You are doing enough of it lately. Mooney is a great bloke - know him well. He is entitled to a view as you are.

Personally I agree with some of what you say, but it would be nice if you avoided trying to make a fellow pro look an idiot. Which he isn't.
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Old 1st Oct 2002, 19:11
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..... and just to think Mooney that GoFly pilots used to auction the flighdeck jumpseats for charity !! i.e. just go ask big Frank about how he'd leave the cockpit to conduct the auction from the forward cabin PA:

"Lets start with £10 ? I now hear £20, thank you sir. And now £50, thank you madam. Now remember folks it's all for charity. Wow, £100 - thank you sir !!! - any more ? No ? SOLD !! ... to the foreign looking gentleman in row 1"

...... ah nostalgia !

Ps. (hence the edit) Now what if some terrorist type blokes hire a group of Gulfstream V's or Challenger 604's ( these are aircraft with a potential fuel capacity of 19 tonnes of Jet A1 and a takeoff weight nearly that of many small airliners - albeit that most of which have nothing except a curtain between the cabin and the flightdeck ) and / or what if somebody gets hold of a 'light aircraft' and fills it full of Semtex ( one could easily get 1/2 a tonne of the stuff in most single engine types ). Accordingly why bother to hijack an airliner when any of these methods is infinitely easier to pull off, and just as lethal as a delivery platform.

Also, locking the flightdeck door ( especially when one keeps opening it for all the reasons that we do ) is simply NOT effective at stopping highly motivated, well trained, and determined terrorists, e.g. they'll just rush it when the hostie opens it to bring in your tea !

Last edited by Devils Advocate; 1st Oct 2002 at 20:52.
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Old 1st Oct 2002, 19:18
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Just to get the facts straight:

According to tha caption this pic was taken on
"Team Lufthansa operated by Cirrus Airlines",
which fits with type.
Careful please with the yellow press headlines.

Interestingly enough, the bozo who took the pic is a FRA spotter, employee of LH and was even featured in th LH-Pravda some weeks ago...
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Old 1st Oct 2002, 19:19
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Err...without wishing to advertise whatever it might be to all and sundry I am interested to know what is the new policy if the ''passive compliance has gone for ever''? Perhaps a reference to some authoritative document with restricted circulation would assist? Thank you. Please note this is a question for Europe : I am aware of the American debate.
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Old 1st Oct 2002, 19:21
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Perhaps the planes in these pic's aren't airbourne. The cockpit door was opened after the flight had landed on an Air Malta plane I was on recently before all the pax has disembarked (probably the closest I'll ever get to the instruments on a jet again)

Obviously the pilots saw no danger & perhaps you've misinterpreted the pic's.

Incidentally I notice now pax tend to now break out in applause once the plane has landed & it certainly wasn't cause of the smooth landings Obviously there is still alot of nervousness & relief to be on the ground among pax.

Mooney, don't mind them pet! Hope you're flying career is going well for you

Old 1st Oct 2002, 19:33
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just for info:

CIRRUS AIRLINES is a tiny little company with friendly and very professional people based in Saarbrücken near the french border. CIRRUS is painted on their AC on top and below Team LUFTHANSA. Never the less, they fly on some routes as "Member of Team Lufthansa."
Interested? www.cirrus-airlines.de

Please dont forget: Small AC with FT passengers mostly well known to crews, kind of family business.

Last edited by Captain104; 2nd Oct 2002 at 08:29.
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Old 1st Oct 2002, 20:23
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Arrow Cockpit or Cockup?

I do not think flying with your door open is such a big deal atleast it should not be made into one. Follow your company procedures on that.
When it comes to cockpit visits for the flying public, well, I think that those will return once this paranoia settles a bit. With all this hysteria around this is not likely to happen any time soon. Is flying with the door open pathetic and a simply an ego-trip for pilots trying to prove something. I think not. Can´t be that simple, otherwise world would be black and white.
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Old 1st Oct 2002, 20:24
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have flown to Canada ex LHR twice recently, both times sporadic claps broke out on touch down in Canada, but a sullen silence prevailed at LHR

For me the clapping just reminds me of the stories of the flights leaving Soviet airspace which regularly broke into applause when flightdeck announced leaving the "Red Zone"
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Old 1st Oct 2002, 20:28
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What is the partial blue circle doing on the right side of the doorway???

I am HORRIFIED to report that I have located and identified similar blue, somewhat elliptical, moderately opaque, apparently plastic objects in a number of other Dornier images (Dornier 1 , Dornier 2 , Dornier 3 , Dornier 4 )

What fresh hell is this? OBVIOUSLY the photos have been doctored. If they have not, then it must be admitted that someone has installed a device upon these airframes which appears capable of filtering much of the visible spectrum created by a thermonuclear (fusion) reaction viewed at a distance approaching 100 million miles. I, for one, do not see the utility in the device and believe there is no real market. Mark my words. If this device (if it IS a device rather than evidence of tampering with the images) had real value, then why would aircrews go to such lengths to hide the things against the bulkhead or next to a window? Perhaps these "wonder filters" are not so wonderful after all...

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Old 1st Oct 2002, 20:33
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Over the last 20 years I have enjoyed the fascinating education of a great many flight deck visits. Now I find it pathetic that we are forced to deny the same opportunity to all of today's enthusiasts and budding aviators in a mass security farse. At the same time we are refusing ourselves the freedom to chat to a visitor or go for a coffee or a **** without taking part in an ineffective pantomime.

We all agree that the nail clipper confiscation culture dreampt up by the empire building security companies is a pervertion right? In the same veign, I say that anyone supporting the implementation of bull**** rules, that force us to live like frightened rabbits cowering in a headlamp beam, is contributing to the effectiveness of terrorism.

I am all for security and vigilance applied with common sense but am reminded of the story of "The Emporor's new Clothes" by the ridiculous situations that arise almost daily. Aviation industry security I ask you!
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Old 1st Oct 2002, 20:44
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mmm, flew on a certain Spanish airline recently (on 9/11 this year!) and the door was swinging open for half the flight, and it definitely wasn't locked as the cc were constantly wandering in and out.

Makes a mockery of all this ridiculous security that we in the UK have to put up with now, if the rest of Europe don't bother. Unfortunately we've just bent over and done whatever the FAA has asked us to do. Don't get me wrong, of course we have to be seen to be doing something about security, but the efforts should be on the ground, and those on the a/c should at least achieve something and not just be 'for show' as most of it seems to be.
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Old 1st Oct 2002, 22:02
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MOR- if you think I should grow up- perhaps you should adopt a more professional attitude in your replies.

I realise that under US FAA rules- the doors on the hijacked a/c where locked.

However- mr bloggs in the street see's aviation safety and confidence with Pilots behind locked doors. End of Story. My main point was- pictures like this and others on the web site I came across surprised me.

I am very sad that we dont allow flight deck visits any more- it's where i had most of my inspiration. I enjoyed welcoming any one into the flight deck who wished to see it. Its a pity we can no longer take our family and friends along.

But i'm sorry- times have changed (BA Kenya and Sept 11th). The public want us tucked away- for them its security. For us- it's a smoke screen not terrorist proof. Since they the public pay me to fly i'll lock the door.

Even if this picture is false- the case continues.

A reminder of a post a few weeks back from the Telegraph :

Cockpit doors 'left open' despite post-September 11 regulations
By Rosemary Behan

There is growing concern that British and foreign airlines are not sufficiently enforcing an international requirement to lock cockpit doors during flights.

The regulation was brought in after the terrorists gained access to cockpits and took control of four aircraft over the United States.

The Daily Telegraph has received dozens of letters from readers concerned that cockpit doors are being left open.

Captain I T Whale, from Frinton-On-Sea, Essex, claimed that, on a Ryanair flight from Stansted to Glasgow Prestwick in early July, the cockpit door "stood open for long periods of time". Capt Whale added: "Even when it was shut, the cabin staff seemed to be able to pass in and out at will with no locks, combination pads, or prior telephone admission required."

Later in July, Capt Whale flew from Stansted to Rome Ciampino airport with Go, where he witnessed similar procedures. "We also commented on passengers being able to use the forward toilet with the flight deck open. There was no apparent reinforcement of the forward bulkhead or flight deck doors on either aircraft, so far as one could tell."

A spokesman for Go insisted the airline "adheres to the strictest on-board security procedures [including locking cockpit doors]. Along with other airlines we are working with the Civil Aviation Authority, the Department of Transport and manufacturers to complete a programme of fitting reinforced cockpit doors. The safety and security of passengers is Go's highest priority."

Nigel Gates, from Rickmansworth, Herts, a trained pilot and an expert on air traffic management, air traffic control and aviation engineering, who has flown regularly since last year's terrorist attacks, said he had been impressed with the increased security measures shown on American Airlines and British Airways.

He was less impressed on a Ryanair flight in June, from Stansted to Graz, in Austria. Mr Gates claimed: "Without giving any form of signal the cabin crew were entering and leaving the flight deck, which seemed not to be locked during the flight. I wrote to Michael O'Leary, the chief executive of [the Dublin-based] Ryanair, who assured me that the flight doors on Ryanair aircraft were kept locked and were only opened in response to a signal from the flight crew. However, it is interesting to note in last week's Daily Telegraph that another Ryanair passenger has also observed what I noticed three months ago."

A spokesman for Ryanair said: "Ryanair policy is to lock the cockpit door at all times and it is only opened on pre-agreed signals between cockpit and cabin crew. Ryanair operates the most stringent security measures with regard to passenger photographic identification, which is a prerequisite for check-in on all Ryanair international and domestic flights.

"We welcome such feedback from passengers and will be addressing their experience with the relevant crews in our continuing policy of maximising the safety and security on all Ryanair flights."

Don Moffat, who returned to Britain from Toronto with MyTravel in July, said the flight deck door was left open throughout the flight. A spokesman for MyTravel said: "The procedures used by MyTravel Airways for securing the flight deck door comply fully with present Civil Aviation Authority and US Federal Aviation Authority Administration guidelines. The door is locked at all times during the operation apart from when access is required by the cabin crew for a particular reason, or the flight deck crew need to leave the flight deck for a short time. In these cases specific security measures are taken. At no time is the flight deck door left opened or unlocked."

Readers have also expressed concerns about a number of foreign airlines.

The CAA said it would take the matter up with the British airlines and "would remind them of the policy to keep cockpit doors locked at all times during flights".

A spokesman for the Department of Transport said the Government had no powers to force foreign-registered aircraft to lock their cockpit doors during flights to and from Britain. "However, if we became aware of foreign airlines not complying with this requirement we would pursue the matter with the state concerned," he added.

Last edited by Mooney; 1st Oct 2002 at 22:15.
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