Ual-SWA Jumpseat Incident
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IRRenewal stated: Don't allow them in the flightdeck unless you have to, there will normally be a seat of some description available in the cabin.
Your company rosters two sets of eyes to be there and that should be enough to keep your flight safe. That third set of eyes also comes with a third mouth to talk and distract you, not to mention they can drop you in it as illustrated in this thread.
Regarding a seat of "some description", perhaps a seat in the lavatory or the F/A jump seat? A third set of eyes is always welcome in the cockpit. I have seen no credible evidence of the UAL pilot contacted the FAA, only rumors.
Your company rosters two sets of eyes to be there and that should be enough to keep your flight safe. That third set of eyes also comes with a third mouth to talk and distract you, not to mention they can drop you in it as illustrated in this thread.
Regarding a seat of "some description", perhaps a seat in the lavatory or the F/A jump seat? A third set of eyes is always welcome in the cockpit. I have seen no credible evidence of the UAL pilot contacted the FAA, only rumors.
This incident is EXACTLY why I put jumpseaters in the cabin if at all possible. I won't leave one on the ground, but if there is a cabin seat, that is where they will sit. The "I need to sit up here so I can get off quick" excuse won't work either. Unless I know the person, that's how it will go down. Today's world has too much weirdness in it and everything is documented on cell phones. No thanks, not getting paid extra for the added risk of having an eyewitness watching every move we make for however long the flight is.
[rant off]
[rant off]
This incident is EXACTLY why I put jumpseaters in the cabin if at all possible. I won't leave one on the ground, but if there is a cabin seat, that is where they will sit. The "I need to sit up here so I can get off quick" excuse won't work either. Unless I know the person, that's how it will go down. Today's world has too much weirdness in it and everything is documented on cell phones. No thanks, not getting paid extra for the added risk of having an eyewitness watching every move we make for however long the flight is.
[rant off]
[rant off]
So sad to see it has come down to this. Perhaps it is best seen as an isolated incident and nothing more. It reminds me of the classroom days when one pupil would misbehave and the entire class would be punished. We see too much of that now days too.
I would have never even dreamed of doing anything like this, my own company pilots probably would have strung me up for ruining it for the rest of them. I would have had to be in fear of imminent death to even think about calling the FAA.
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Don't allow them in the flightdeck unless you have to, there will normally be a seat of some description available in the cabin.
Your company rosters two sets of eyes to be there and that should be enough to keep your flight safe. That third set of eyes also comes with a third mouth to talk and distract you, not to mention they can drop you in it as illustrated in this thread.
Your company rosters two sets of eyes to be there and that should be enough to keep your flight safe. That third set of eyes also comes with a third mouth to talk and distract you, not to mention they can drop you in it as illustrated in this thread.
* You have a responsibilty as a jumpseater. Any kind of incident and the FAA would like to talk to you, too. Also applies to blood alcohol and fatigue (calling fatigued and riding home on the j/s is a big No) etc.
* "there will normally be a seat of some description available in the cabin" Do you really think pilots love to ride up front to see other pilots work? Again, I question your (airline) experience.
* There are unwritten rules among pilots, like what happens on the flighdeck stays on the flightdeck. I am not on a 737 and am not familiar with SWA SOP's but is this incident (by the new First Officer) reportable? I imagine SWA having some sort of aircraft/pilot monitoring program (FOQA).
* What about if the SWA crew in question were going to submit an ASAP about it? There's not much the FAA can do about it.
Gossip I heard is that this UAL pilot's husband works for the FAA. This still does not sound very plausible to me.
In today's social media age, I wouldn't be surprised her moving to a UAL crew base.
Last edited by Squawk7777; 13th May 2024 at 14:23. Reason: spellin'
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This incident is EXACTLY why I put jumpseaters in the cabin if at all possible. I won't leave one on the ground, but if there is a cabin seat, that is where they will sit. The "I need to sit up here so I can get off quick" excuse won't work either. Unless I know the person, that's how it will go down. Today's world has too much weirdness in it and everything is documented on cell phones. No thanks, not getting paid extra for the added risk of having an eyewitness watching every move we make for however long the flight is.
[rant off]
[rant off]
Last edited by Squawk7777; 13th May 2024 at 14:46.
Can someone translate this into 767 lingo please? Does the clean speed really change or do they mean the top of the amber band goes above clean speed (quite normal in the 767)?
I remember many moons ago that on a number of occasions when I rode jumpseat as a non-pilot (but as ATC) the Captain explained the sterile cockpit rule, but additionally added that if I saw anything glaringly wrong I should speak up! I don't think it was meant in terms of cockpit procedures but probably more in the sense of an extra pair of eyes scanning outside the cockpit.
I do distinctly remember an occasion, also very many moons ago, on a Trident, when a chatty captain (no sterile cockpit in those days) received a line up and wait (or "hold" in those days). He lined up, called "rolling" and proceeded to take off. I was sure that we hadn't been given take off clearance but since the F/O seemed happy I concluded that I was wrong and kept very quiet. After take off Amsterdam ATC pointed out that we had not been cleared but that on hearing the "rolling" transmission they concluded there was nothing to impede us and allowed the take-off to continue. One very red-faced captain. I decided that in future I would speak up. Never needed to though, thank goodness!
I do distinctly remember an occasion, also very many moons ago, on a Trident, when a chatty captain (no sterile cockpit in those days) received a line up and wait (or "hold" in those days). He lined up, called "rolling" and proceeded to take off. I was sure that we hadn't been given take off clearance but since the F/O seemed happy I concluded that I was wrong and kept very quiet. After take off Amsterdam ATC pointed out that we had not been cleared but that on hearing the "rolling" transmission they concluded there was nothing to impede us and allowed the take-off to continue. One very red-faced captain. I decided that in future I would speak up. Never needed to though, thank goodness!
Am I the only one that's uncomfortable with the number of supposedly professional aircrew uttering "what happens on the flightdeck, stays on the flight deck"? Thought our industry had moved on from that attitude
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As this is an anonymous forum you have as much right to question my experience as I have to question yours. And you are right, I have no experience flying in the US. Having said that, if you feel the need to question my experience as a pilot it basically indicates you have run out of reasonable arguments to counteract my point of view. I have carried hundreds if not thousands of jumpseaters during my career. It is just that with us the default is that they sit in the cabin, not on the flightdeck jumpseat, and I do consider that the safer option.
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As this is an anonymous forum you have as much right to question my experience as I have to question yours. And you are right, I have no experience flying in the US. Having said that, if you feel the need to question my experience as a pilot it basically indicates you have run out of reasonable arguments to counteract my point of view. I have carried hundreds if not thousands of jumpseaters during my career. It is just that with us the default is that they sit in the cabin, not on the flightdeck jumpseat, and I do consider that the safer option.
There are no options taking a seat in the back because the bl00dy plane is full. Pilots are not permitted on F/A jumpseats (contractual issue) . And I am referring to jumpseaters aka commuting pilots who are CASS certified, and not deadheaders (supernumerary).
If you have carried thousands of jumpseaters in your career as you claim, I very much question your claim. An extra set of eyes is worth a lot, if you perceive this as a liability or threat you might work at the wrong place.
P.S. I'll add more to your " if you feel the need to question my experience as a pilot it basically indicates you have run out of reasonable arguments to counteract my point of view." comment tomorrow, there was a NASA study actually contradicting your statement. Getting late here ...
Last edited by Squawk7777; 13th May 2024 at 21:43.
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We have, there are several safety programs in use, the US uses ASAP, the UK ASR if my memory serves me well. Don't use my comment "what happens on the flightdeck, stays on the flight deck" to imply any kind of cover-up or willfull disregard of SOPs etc. I am referring to pilots having a bad day. I hope your company doesn't encourage you turning fellow pilots in... Would your company encourage you to call the local aviation authority for an event that is probably covered by ASAP?
Last edited by Squawk7777; 13th May 2024 at 21:29. Reason: re-written for clarification
If jumpseaters ever did get perceived as FAA stand-ins, that would be the end of that.
If I was a skipper in La La Land then I know where UAL pilots would be sitting in future - at the gate waiting for the next flight to squeal on. And good luck to them! Wish I was one of God’s chosen pilots! (That’s a joke for the dim folk).
If you think having an “extra pair of eyes” is beneficial on your flight deck then I would suggest you seriously consider your competency in the either LHS or RHS.
If you think having an “extra pair of eyes” is beneficial on your flight deck then I would suggest you seriously consider your competency in the either LHS or RHS.
If I was a skipper in La La Land then I know where UAL pilots would be sitting in future - at the gate waiting for the next flight to squeal on. And good luck to them! Wish I was one of God’s chosen pilots! (That’s a joke for the dim folk).
If you think having an “extra pair of eyes” is beneficial on your flight deck then I would suggest you seriously consider your competency in the either LHS or RHS.
If you think having an “extra pair of eyes” is beneficial on your flight deck then I would suggest you seriously consider your competency in the either LHS or RHS.
I found it beneficial on occasion, I spent nearly two decades commuting by air and many of those trips were reluctantly spent on the jumpseat, almost every Captain would say if you see anything we didn’t notice let us know and I did occasionally, my small contribution was always received gratefully.
I always said the same thing to my jumpseaters when I became Captain and likewise was happy to have them speak up if they saw anything untoward
I found it beneficial on occasion, I spent nearly two decades commuting by air and many of those trips were reluctantly spent on the jumpseat, almost every Captain would say if you see anything we didn’t notice let us know and I did occasionally, my small contribution was always received gratefully.
I always said the same thing to my jumpseaters when I became Captain and likewise was happy to have them speak up if they saw anything untoward
I always said the same thing to my jumpseaters when I became Captain and likewise was happy to have them speak up if they saw anything untoward
We have, there are several safety programs in use, the US uses ASAP, the UK ASR if my memory serves me well. Don't use my comment "what happens on the flightdeck, stays on the flight deck" to imply any kind of cover-up or willfull disregard of SOPs etc. I am referring to pilots having a bad day. I hope your company doesn't encourage you turning fellow pilots in... Would your company encourage you to call the local aviation authority for an event that is probably covered by ASAP?
Those kind of phrases belong at a Vegas Bachelor Party, not in a modern professional flight deck environment
Last edited by zero/zero; 14th May 2024 at 07:14.
There is an amber band on the speed tape which reflects 1.3 g margin to stick shake. It is variable under certain conditions, anti ice on / off, flap position etc. Speedbrake use has a small influence I understand. It has different interpretations high / low altitude. There is a broader description in the FCTM. Essentially if you are encroaching the amber band, there is reduced manoeuvre margin. However that is easily corrected as described by cancel speedbrake, add thrust and / or select flaps. My interpretation of events here is that ‘clean’ refers to the top of the amber band. The minimum clean speed is a green icon which is referenced to weight and does not change with speedbrake use.