Russians playing games with their jammers (believed)

[Right20deg]

Originally Posted by ATC Watcher

It is played by both sides, as the main use is against drones , the US and Israel and playing with it as much as Russia. We civilians are just collateral damage.. The price to pay to fly near conflict zones.

You make a very good point. So we are stuck with this .

[oceancrosser]

Bring back NDBs! But in reality, all those Aviation Authorities that have been throwing out the ground based NAVAIDS need to have a rethink.

[CargoOne]

It is not an attack, just a collateral damage. Russia is jamming their borders to protect against the drones. Good thing is that TAY airport still has a functioning ILS (ok may be calibration is out of date) and the tower is still there, you just need to send dispatchers to switch the lights on and provide vectoring. So it can be solved quickly if politicians will decide so, just a matter of money. Finnish eastern airports are in worse position as ILS were either removed or not existed from day one.

[LapSap]

Originally Posted by oceancrosser

Bring back NDBs! But in reality, all those Aviation Authorities that have been throwing out the ground based NAVAIDS need to have a rethink.

Well i have thought for some time now that the "all-the-eggs-in-one-basket" obsession with doing away with all ground-based aids in favour of "free" GPS/GNSS was going to come back to bite us.

With so many areas of conflict en-route now, a large number of our flights are turning up in the Far East with no ADS-B, unable to accept certain runways with RNP Missed Approach procedures and having to be separated more due lack of other surveillance.

My understanding is once Airbus fleet detect out of tolerance position information, ADS-B is automatically decoupled (or de-latched is a term I've heard used) and cannot be recoupled in flight. Whereas with Boeing types, the system can be manually recoupled once in a stable GNSS reception area.
Can any body comment on the accuracy of that info?

[ATC Watcher]

Originally Posted by LapSap

My understanding is once Airbus fleet detect out of tolerance position information, ADS-B is automatically decoupled (or de-latched is a term I've heard used) and cannot be recoupled in flight. Whereas with Boeing types, the system can be manually recoupled once in a stable GNSS reception area.
Can any body comment on the accuracy of that info?

interesting question , I did not hear that one before , I will add another if I may : on the Boeing 787 avionics are synchronized by the GPS clock signal , and once /jammed/spoofed you cannot reset the clock in flight and you lose many functions including CPDLC for the rest of the flight . Is it the same on the Airbus fleet ?

[601]

Back to the good old days, VAR, VOR, DME, LLZ, ILS and ADF.
Maybe if GPS was designed from the beginning as a navigation system, we would not be having this discussion about jamming.
Same with the WWW.
Using both for things that were never envisaged.

[Jwscud]

LapSap speak to your technical department. There is a lot of work going on behind the scenes at Airbus on this issue with possible resets for certain types, but one can’t just invent a reset procedure without properly testing it so patience is needed.

[Sailvi767]

Originally Posted by LapSap

Well i have thought for some time now that the "all-the-eggs-in-one-basket" obsession with doing away with all ground-based aids in favour of "free" GPS/GNSS was going to come back to bite us.

With so many areas of conflict en-route now, a large number of our flights are turning up in the Far East with no ADS-B, unable to accept certain runways with RNP Missed Approach procedures and having to be separated more due lack of other surveillance.

My understanding is once Airbus fleet detect out of tolerance position information, ADS-B is automatically decoupled (or de-latched is a term I've heard used) and cannot be recoupled in flight. Whereas with Boeing types, the system can be manually recoupled once in a stable GNSS reception area.
Can any body comment on the accuracy of that info?

What you posted matches my experience on the A330.

[Sailvi767]

Originally Posted by 601

Back to the good old days, VAR, VOR, DME, LLZ, ILS and ADF.
Maybe if GPS was designed from the beginning as a navigation system, we would not be having this discussion about jamming.
Same with the WWW.
Using both for things that were never envisaged.

GPS will always be highly susceptible to jamming. It’s a very low power system by design. To come up with a more jam resistant system would require far more power out which is simply not possibly with current of envisaged future technology in satellites on the scale needed to provide worldwide coverage.

[Sallyann1234]

I've mentioned above the possibility of using eLORAN as an alternative to GPS, because of its inherent resistance to jamming.
It seems that South Korea is already deploying eLORAN as a defence against GPS spoofing by North Korea. This of course will not assist civil aircraft visiting the area since they will not be suitably equipped to receive it. But other countries are working on the necessary ground systems to deploy eLORAN, and airlines should be looking now at suitable upgrades to their navigation equipment.

Meanwhile .. back in the Good 'ol NK ....

[Right20deg]

Punish Ru F with a targeted blow to the site of their equipment. They do not understand don't and please. Hard as nails please. Then novickoc their toilet handles. We will find you and damage you back. Then deny and pour tea.

[639]

Could be helpfull in Future....https://www.advancednavigation.com/t...-sensor-fusion

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by Right20deg

Punish Ru F with a targeted blow to the site of their equipment. They do not understand don't and please. Hard as nails please. Then novickoc their toilet handles. We will find you and damage you back. Then deny and pour tea.

Conveniently neglecting to specify who ought to inflict said punishment ...

[t211]

Originally Posted by oceancrosser

Bring back NDBs! But in reality, all those Aviation Authorities that have been throwing out the ground based NAVAIDS need to have a rethink.

IIRC in the day's of tracking up the Southern Corridor of the Berlin from Fulda NDB to TXL It was allways being Jammed someone on my fleet at the time found a localiser aligned of a Track of 052 for 200nm Aprox But that used to get jammed as well

[WideScreen]

Originally Posted by Right20deg

Punish Ru F with a targeted blow to the site of their equipment. They do not understand don't and please. Hard as nails please. Then novickoc their toilet handles. We will find you and damage you back. Then deny and pour tea.

Not that difficult.

Western world does have a partner, showing to be very capable to take out militairy objects far away from their country borders, in a desperate need for all and every Western support it can get. And as such quite likely to do an additional hit job to get those extra things awarded as a reward. Western world could even send putti that message openly, one of the very few messages putti understands and respects......

[champair79]

Originally Posted by ATC Watcher

interesting question , I did not hear that one before , I will add another if I may : on the Boeing 787 avionics are synchronized by the GPS clock signal , and once /jammed/spoofed you cannot reset the clock in flight and you lose many functions including CPDLC for the rest of the flight . Is it the same on the Airbus fleet ?

On the Airbus, SOP was to switch the clock to INT (internal) mode before entering a GPS interference area. CPDLC should still work up to 24hrs after this action as the clock remains accurate enough.

I’m on the 777 now and I’ve experienced clock spoofing. It was quite subtle (just a few minutes) and I only picked it up when filing out the nav log. Fortunately, the clock reset to the correct time when out of the interference area. We were not using CPDLC at the time.

[Right20deg]

Originally Posted by WideScreen

Not that difficult.

Western world does have a partner, showing to be very capable to take out militairy objects far away from their country borders, in a desperate need for all and every Western support it can get. And as such quite likely to do an additional hit job to get those extra things awarded as a reward. Western world could even send putti that message openly, one of the very few messages putti understands and respects......

We are discretely advised that there is reciprocal action from the west, but it is not announced or acknowledged by the aggressor. I can live with at.

[ATC Watcher]

We must not forget that the large scale Jamming and spoofing encountered since October on a daily basis over the Middle East and East Mediterranean is not coming from "enemies to the West "

[WideScreen]

Originally Posted by ATC Watcher

We must not forget that the large scale Jamming and spoofing encountered since October on a daily basis over the Middle East and East Mediterranean is not coming from "enemies to the West "

Not wanting to go off-topic into the Hamas-Israel "activities" going on, though more and more Western countries explicitly distance themselves (if not formally by the government, at least large parts of the civilians) from the country being the probable source of the spoofing, in the process losing more and more "friends".

[Teddy Robinson]

Good evening.

I have been flying in a certain part of the world, in an advanced, although antiquated aircraft.
This part of the world is a hot spot for jamming / spoofing, and the visual evidence is everywhere.
Both the US and Russia have an interest in the region, as do the local adversaries, so the problem is well know to our crews.

Passing a predictable point, the wind indication moves 180 degrees and increases from 40 to 200 knots with no wind-shear, and against the forecast winds aloft.
Both the IRS and analogue versions of our aircraft throw a fit as there are no ground based aids to rescue them.

This usually comes at a point where we need to turn into seriously uncharted territory in the middle of a sandstorm ... however ....

We both have our route preplanned into our Ipads, and these are STILL displaying an accurate visually checked position, speed and GPS Altitude with a stated accuracy of 6 meters.

All I can say is that it is phonemically accurate, and gives real time downgrades to position accuracy if that occurs.

Granted: you cannot and must not fly an RNP approach into a major airport based solely on this information, what I can say after many years of experience is that works well to acquire an airfield in VFR conditions, or to navigate accurately until the onboard systems can be brought back online,

Fly safe TR.