US Pilots Reluctant To Use Mayday in Emergencies
MAYDAY is a simple one word and makes it clear to everyone INSTANTLY that you're in trouble
I honestly can't see why Dog doesn't like it - seemingly on the grounds its "not American"
I honestly can't see why Dog doesn't like it - seemingly on the grounds its "not American"
Of course it's the "other aircrafts problem". If I'm expecting to land at an airport and someone has just declared a MAYDAY I can at least expect my landing to be delayed, if not a diversion to an alternate. My situational awareness has just been greatly improved by knowing that there's an aircraft out there in trouble. I also know to shut up and await instructions.
Nobody died, everybody got what they needed, and safety wasn’t compromised.
It's odd that a Nation which seems to be intent on minimising word content to muttered 'cool', 'ossum', OMG, 'keh' and non committal grunts would prefer descriptive scenario output rather than formulaic clear statement.That aside, those aviators who have ever bothered to acquaint themselves with the ground based side of aviation communication, will be aware of the unheard background activity which 'PAN' and, particularly, 'MAYDAY' initiates. The resultant reduction in workload in a potentially high load situation is of undoubted value.... it possibly doesn't sit well with 'Top Gun' mindsets !
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As anybody who has seen the various RNLI Saving Lives at Sea programmes will know, Mayday is only supposed to be used when there is an imminent danger to life. If your yacht's engine breaks down it is not a Mayday. If your yacht's engine breaks down and the current is sweeping you onto rocks it is a Mayday. Sending a Mayday call is asking for help, I am not sure what help can be rendered to an airliner flying at 16,000 feet, so maybe the use of Mayday by aircraft is pointless and just declaring an emergency is the correct option.
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The USA regulations are surprisingly vague and seem to be cobbled together from 1950s ideas that nobody has the stomach to try cleaning up. It works okay for them. Though I’d like to think they at least try to adapt when they visit the Rest of the World.
As anybody who has seen the various RNLI Saving Lives at Sea programmes will know, Mayday is only supposed to be used when there is an imminent danger to life. If your yacht's engine breaks down it is not a Mayday. If your yacht's engine breaks down and the current is sweeping you onto rocks it is a Mayday. Sending a Mayday call is asking for help, I am not sure what help can be rendered to an airliner flying at 16,000 feet, so maybe the use of Mayday by aircraft is pointless and just declaring an emergency is the correct option.
A major decompression is most assuredly a MAYDAY if the drills are carried out correctly as you will iminently be initiating a rapid descent if you haven't already done so, that action in itself requires a MAYDAY regardless of the malfunction.
Also, when your eardrums almost burst, there's a massive bang and whoosh, the cockpit door bursts open and the cabin is full of fog, rubber jungle and screams you haven't a clue what's caused it, you could have had a midair, lost a cargo door or half the roof's come off à la Hawaii - it could have been a bomb... it'll be many minutes before you might learn what's happened (if you ever do before landing). That's most definately an immediate MAYDAY and rapid descent until such time as you are satisfied there is no more danger -
That is not the time for the garbled , imprecise and inarticulate RT as we heard in this case and as we have in many others. Quite unlike the crisp, immaculate and unmistakable RT of the Thomsonfly in post #12.
OK, clearly she was well rattled - that's quite understandable but regular practice in MAYDAY calls throughout training would have kicked in had she recieved that in training and recurrents, it becomes second nature.
Last edited by meleagertoo; 10th Jan 2024 at 11:10.
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Surely an advantage to a Mayday is that it helps pilots communicate the nature of an urgent and unusual situation, in a pattern which they have practiced in the sim.
Both of the example video's get the message over eventually, but it takes some back and forth. No harm done, but why not learn from it?
Compared to the Thompson video (which was always going to be posted) where the pilot does his mayday and tells atc what he is doing. ATC and everyone else listens and reacts. The Pilot knows what they are going to say because they practice the start of it in every sim. ATC no what to expect, because they will also practice it. Everyone on air is clear.
And finally one of my favourites where Aer Lingus declare a mayday, and ATC ask if they are declaring an emergency...
Both of the example video's get the message over eventually, but it takes some back and forth. No harm done, but why not learn from it?
Compared to the Thompson video (which was always going to be posted) where the pilot does his mayday and tells atc what he is doing. ATC and everyone else listens and reacts. The Pilot knows what they are going to say because they practice the start of it in every sim. ATC no what to expect, because they will also practice it. Everyone on air is clear.
And finally one of my favourites where Aer Lingus declare a mayday, and ATC ask if they are declaring an emergency...
Emergency descent after depressurisation is a good example of when a MAYDAY broadcast serves a vital purpose in alerting other pilots to listen carefully to the message which follows, as they may need to take avoiding action and be prepared for some rapidly changing TCAS advisories. There's not enough time in such situations for ATC to assimilate the emergency message, assess its consequences for other aircraft and transmit bespoke advisories to each affected callsign. The idea from our nautical interloper that aircraft are 'on their own' and don't stand to benefit from others being immediately aware is rather crass!
Sending a MAYDAY is NOT just asking for help, it's also telling everyone - ATC as well as other aircraft - that there is iminent danger and you may not be asking to do things before you've done them. It's telling everyone "I'm doing whatever I think I need to do right now and I may not be be asking first. I'll tell you what I'm doing if I can and when I can."
A major decompression is most assuredly a MAYDAY if the drills are carried out correctly as you will iminently be initiating a rapid descent if you haven't already done so, that action in itself requires a MAYDAY regardless of the malfunction.
Also, when your eardrums almost burst, there's a massive bang and whoosh, the cockpit door bursts open and the cabin is full of fog, rubber jungle and screams you haven't a clue what's caused it, you could have had a midair, lost a cargo door or half the roof's come off à la Hawaii - it could have been a bomb... it'll be many minutes before you might learn what's happened (if you ever do before landing). That's most definately an immediate MAYDAY and rapid descent until such time as you are satisfied there is no more danger -
That is not the time for the garbled , imprecise and inarticulate RT as we heard in this case and as we have in many others. Quite unlike the crisp, immaculate and unmistakable RT of the Thomsonfly in post #12.
OK, clearly she was well rattled - that's quite understandable but regular practice in MAYDAY calls throughout training would have kicked in had she recieved that in training and recurrents, it becomes second nature.
A major decompression is most assuredly a MAYDAY if the drills are carried out correctly as you will iminently be initiating a rapid descent if you haven't already done so, that action in itself requires a MAYDAY regardless of the malfunction.
Also, when your eardrums almost burst, there's a massive bang and whoosh, the cockpit door bursts open and the cabin is full of fog, rubber jungle and screams you haven't a clue what's caused it, you could have had a midair, lost a cargo door or half the roof's come off à la Hawaii - it could have been a bomb... it'll be many minutes before you might learn what's happened (if you ever do before landing). That's most definately an immediate MAYDAY and rapid descent until such time as you are satisfied there is no more danger -
That is not the time for the garbled , imprecise and inarticulate RT as we heard in this case and as we have in many others. Quite unlike the crisp, immaculate and unmistakable RT of the Thomsonfly in post #12.
OK, clearly she was well rattled - that's quite understandable but regular practice in MAYDAY calls throughout training would have kicked in had she recieved that in training and recurrents, it becomes second nature.
An explosive decompression isn’t necessarily an emergency depending on the circumstances.
A few months ago, I was in the high teens over the central US (just me, coming home from work) when there was a God-awful bang, and the rear bulkhead fascia hit the back of my seat. it started to snow in the cabin, and the cabin diff went to zero. Everything else was nominal, so I sucked O2 for a few min, called Center and asked to land at an upcoming larger airport to troubleshoot a problem. No muss, no fuss, landed and figured out that the rear cabin door was maladjusted, and had popped open sufficiently to allow the aircraft to decompress suddenly at altitude.
Didn’t need to discommode anyone, nor should I have…
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Mike, further to your post #12, following my comments, I'm not in a slanging match USA versus the world. My comments on two mayday events into Paris were when flying a British aircraft from the UK.
The pilot communicating did an impeccable job.
An explosive decompression isn’t necessarily an emergency depending on the circumstances.
A few months ago, I was in the high teens over the central US (just me, coming home from work)
Didn’t need to discommode anyone, nor should I have…
An explosive decompression isn’t necessarily an emergency depending on the circumstances.
A few months ago, I was in the high teens over the central US (just me, coming home from work)
Didn’t need to discommode anyone, nor should I have…
1) You clearly have a unique understanding of the word "impeccable" as well as a unique understanding of the nature of a correct emergency transmission. ICAO will explain...And listen to the audio in Post #12 for an illustration.
2) You on your own is hardly comparable to an airliner full of passengers, is it? You are also not bound by the Flght Manual procedures, company SOPs and Professional responsibility to your pax and crew.
3) Didn't need to discommode anyone? Self-preservation is "discommoding" people? You've had an explosive decompression for unknown reasons and see no need to declare an emergency? How did you know the fuselage hadn't split or fractured or there was some other hazardous damage? Or that a bulkhead had collapsed and could compromise control runs or was shorting cables? I'd have thought mere airmanship (sorry, didn't mean to swear) and prudence would require an emergency to ensure shortest priority routing to the ground lest it gets worse?
I don’t get it, twice in my life I’ve had to declare a pan, the person at the other end instantly knew I was in trouble, but it could be dealt with.
I’ve always thought of Mayday being a word which means “I’m in real trouble I’m going to have to do whatever I like for a bit, I expect you to facilitate that”.
Was this a Mayday situation anyway?
I suppose at the time they didn’t know it was a door plug and not structurally significant.
I’d probably have used the M word and debated that afterwards.
I’ve always thought of Mayday being a word which means “I’m in real trouble I’m going to have to do whatever I like for a bit, I expect you to facilitate that”.
Was this a Mayday situation anyway?
I suppose at the time they didn’t know it was a door plug and not structurally significant.
I’d probably have used the M word and debated that afterwards.
I like you probably would call a mayday as well. Hindsight is a great thing. You don’t know why the aircraft depressurised, and even if you know it was the door is there more structural damage.
When speaking with French controllers all they seem to say to me is, “Tis not possible”. Is that ICAO phraseology?
Three points.
1) You clearly have a unique understanding of the word "impeccable" as well as a unique understanding of the nature of a correct emergency transmission. ICAO will explain...And listen to the audio in Post #12 for an illustration.
2) You on your own is hardly comparable to an airliner full of passengers, is it? You are also not bound by the Flght Manual procedures, company SOPs and Professional responsibility to your pax and crew.
3) Didn't need to discommode anyone? Self-preservation is "discommoding" people? You've had an explosive decompression for unknown reasons and see no need to declare an emergency? How did you know the fuselage hadn't split or fractured or there was some other hazardous damage? Or that a bulkhead had collapsed and could compromise control runs or was shorting cables? I'd have thought mere airmanship (sorry, didn't mean to swear) and prudence would require an emergency to ensure shortest priority routing to the ground lest it gets worse?
1) You clearly have a unique understanding of the word "impeccable" as well as a unique understanding of the nature of a correct emergency transmission. ICAO will explain...And listen to the audio in Post #12 for an illustration.
2) You on your own is hardly comparable to an airliner full of passengers, is it? You are also not bound by the Flght Manual procedures, company SOPs and Professional responsibility to your pax and crew.
3) Didn't need to discommode anyone? Self-preservation is "discommoding" people? You've had an explosive decompression for unknown reasons and see no need to declare an emergency? How did you know the fuselage hadn't split or fractured or there was some other hazardous damage? Or that a bulkhead had collapsed and could compromise control runs or was shorting cables? I'd have thought mere airmanship (sorry, didn't mean to swear) and prudence would require an emergency to ensure shortest priority routing to the ground lest it gets worse?
Administrator
"US Pilots Reluctant To Use Mayday in Emergencies"
As anyone who has been on PPRuNe for a while could have predicted, it has become just that.
What nobody disagrees with: ICAO standard terminology benefits us all.
Thread closed, since the general population seem unable to help themselves from turning this into yet another a comms hamsterwheel.
