Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

EVTOL news and progress - do we need a new dedicated section?

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

EVTOL news and progress - do we need a new dedicated section?

Old 16th Nov 2023, 13:26
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 751
Received 24 Likes on 19 Posts
Originally Posted by MechEngr
The design likely keeps the fixed vertical rotors to use for pitch and roll control in forward flight,
It depends on the design as there are a number of variations. With the Joby all props transition forward in horizontal flight. On the Archer the forward props transition horizontal but the aft props are fixed vertical. The Volocopter keeps all props vertical. And then there is the Jaunt that has a single main rotor with fixed horizontal props which will actually pursue Part 27/29 certification vs the new up and coming eVTOL rules.
wrench1 is offline  
Old 16th Nov 2023, 20:24
  #22 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 73
Posts: 3,677
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I am following closely the Volocopter project as the firm that build them also build gliders ( the DGs) and mu clubs own few of the them , so i sometimes go to their factory and watch them.,
The first ones will have to be piloted, , The only model authorized to fly at the moment is the 2 seats 2X model, so only one paying pax. so the early economics based on autonomous flight for 2 paying pax is not there. Plus, unlike now with the prototypes, commercial operations means minimum CPL , so expensive pilots EASA has clearly said no difference for e-aircraft that for current ones,: 30 minutes reserves, which cut OPS range by 60-70% , next is secured Helipad or airfield to Helipad/airfield ,( some called Vertiports) not random front doors to office buildings. Fist live commercial operational ops planned next year Paris for the Olympics. Likely to be VFR ops only. On fixed special designated routes . Rules on overflying large number of people still unclear. Current trials flights in Pontoise airfield to validate the concept.
So in Europe at least , not that simple.
ATC Watcher is offline  
Old 16th Nov 2023, 20:49
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 1,095
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
I... commercial operations means minimum CPL , so expensive pilots ...
If you find pilots for that at all. Right now (in Europe at least) the airlines are again hiring and even in my sector, business aviation, we start to see a shortage in pilots. Unless you pay these people very well you won't get any. A very well paid pilot carrying one to three passengers at at time will make the operation quite expensive. And what about the times when these vehicles need recharging? In theory, you would need two aircraft per pilot - one that is flown and one that is being charged. Makes the operation even more expensive. In my view these things need to be fully autonomous in order to make any sense, at least commercially.
what next is offline  
Old 17th Nov 2023, 05:21
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: EDLB
Posts: 362
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by what next
In my view these things need to be fully autonomous in order to make any sense, at least commercially.
Yes. And the challenge is the first (propulsion/lift) failure case, when the automation needs to bring the craft safely down within 30 seconds or whatever time the crippled system has left.
EDLB is offline  
Old 17th Nov 2023, 07:13
  #25 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 73
Posts: 3,677
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by EDLB
Yes. And the challenge is the first (propulsion/lift) failure case, when the automation needs to bring the craft safely down within 30 seconds or whatever time the crippled system has left.
And not only how but where to bring it down in an urban area. Landing it on cars or on pavements full of people is not really an option.
ATC Watcher is offline  
Old 17th Nov 2023, 07:36
  #26 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: In front of a computer
Posts: 2,356
Received 91 Likes on 36 Posts
Interestingly I've found there is already a "niche" airport shuttle operating from this Manhattan heliport. This is to EWR and uses conventional rotorcraft with a similar price structure - $195 - to the Joby propsal of around $200. Clearly using an old single engine Jetranger over New York is safer than new multi rotor eVTOLs....
ETOPS is offline  
Old 17th Nov 2023, 09:54
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: EDLB
Posts: 362
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
At least they can count on some proven water rescue services in the Hudson river. To my mind there is a similar Heli service in Las Vegas if your luck did hold up in the casinos.
So yes, there are some biz cases. If they are enough to pay the development costs, future will tell.
EDLB is offline  
Old 17th Nov 2023, 11:36
  #28 (permalink)  
Professional Student
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: My Secret Island Lair
Posts: 620
Received 2 Likes on 1 Post
ETOPS, do you have shares in an EVTOL company?
hobbit1983 is offline  
Old 17th Nov 2023, 13:29
  #29 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: In front of a computer
Posts: 2,356
Received 91 Likes on 36 Posts
No - sadly I'm just a poor retired pilot
ETOPS is offline  
Old 17th Nov 2023, 13:58
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 3,380
Likes: 0
Received 17 Likes on 11 Posts
Variation on a theme:

https://simpleflying.com/leading-fly...ompanies-list/

bafanguy is offline  
Old 17th Nov 2023, 19:28
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,919
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by bafanguy
But I am curious to know what the target demographic is for the pilots who'll be crewing the manned versions of the VTOL devices. And what will the training involve...rotor wing, fixed wing, vectored thrust ratings ?
The FAA currently has a “Powered Lift” category for pilot certificates but I don’t see any active certificates on the FAA pilot statistics page. Just a couple months ago they put out a NPRM to revise the training required and to require type ratings for all powers lift aircraft.
MarkerInbound is offline  
Old 17th Nov 2023, 19:42
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by MarkerInbound
The FAA currently has a “Powered Lift” category for pilot certificates but I don’t see any active certificates on the FAA pilot statistics page. Just a couple months ago they put out a NPRM to revise the training required and to require type ratings for all powers lift aircraft.
I live 10 mins away from both Joby and Archers testing airports in California. Have acquaintances working at both. They will be power lift (only osprey pilots currently have that if the got their equivalency with FAA). The idea is to take a CPL or rotor pilot, and give them type training with a powerlift add on. They are targeting 500hr pilots (vfr 135 mins) who would use this to bridge the gap to 1500hr ATP, then they move on.

Archer would like to have this as part of the United Airlines Aviate ecosystem. the scheme as follows.
1) CPL at United aviate academy in Arizona (former Lufthansa).
2) Archer pilot for 1000 hrs. (Under United banner)
3) United Express pilot until 1000 PIC. (Mesa/gojet/commutair)
4)United Airlines Mainline

jetpig32 is offline  
Old 17th Nov 2023, 19:46
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Also, a few years back FAA allowed powerlift pilots the ability to log count horizontal flight time as “airplane”. This largely benefited the osprey community who were having difficulty getting airline jobs due to CPL ATPL requirements.
jetpig32 is offline  
Old 17th Nov 2023, 21:37
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 3,380
Likes: 0
Received 17 Likes on 11 Posts
Originally Posted by jetpig32
Also, a few years back FAA allowed powerlift pilots the ability to log count horizontal flight time as “airplane”. This largely benefited the osprey community who were having difficulty getting airline jobs due to CPL ATPL requirements.
Just as an example, Delta is allowing Osprey pilots to combine their powered-lift time with fixed wing for application purposes. I don't see a reference to accounting for the portion of time in horizontal flight for the powered-lift pilots:

Minimum of 1,500 hours of total documented flight time. Minimum of 1,000 hours of fixed wing turbine time is preferred (airplane and powered lift combined). Minimum of 250 hours PIC or SIC as defined in 14 CFR §61.159(a)(5) in an airplane category.

https://www.delta.com/us/en/careers/pilots/hiring-faqs




Last edited by bafanguy; 17th Nov 2023 at 22:56.
bafanguy is offline  
Old 17th Nov 2023, 22:57
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 3,380
Likes: 0
Received 17 Likes on 11 Posts
Found this from 2019 from a Delta posting. At least they were thinking about it back then:

Announcing a change to our minimum pilot requirements!

Effective immediately, Delta will allow pilots of aircraft in the Powered Lift category (e.g. the V22 Osprey, AV8B Harrier, and F35B) to count 90% of your Powered Lift flight time toward our requirement of 1,000 hours fixed wing turbine time.
bafanguy is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2023, 16:42
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 63
Posts: 5,198
Received 133 Likes on 60 Posts
I think we absolutely need a separate forum so all the EVTOL BS Fantastical Bafflegab, and Brown rice news posts can be sequestered there and not take up space on real aircraft forums.

Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 18th Nov 2023 at 16:58.
Big Pistons Forever is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2023, 21:13
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Boldly going where no split infinitive has gone before..
Posts: 4,785
Received 44 Likes on 20 Posts
Originally Posted by bafanguy
Found this from 2019 from a Delta posting. At least they were thinking about it back then:

Announcing a change to our minimum pilot requirements!

Effective immediately, Delta will allow pilots of aircraft in the Powered Lift category (e.g. the V22 Osprey, AV8B Harrier, and F35B) to count 90% of your Powered Lift flight time toward our requirement of 1,000 hours fixed wing turbine time.
"Cause sitting keeping the wings level in cruise is MUCH more important than being in charge of a multi-million dollar aircraft during a difficult and skillful vertical take/off or landing- Sheesh!
Wizofoz is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2023, 21:28
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 3,380
Likes: 0
Received 17 Likes on 11 Posts
Originally Posted by Wizofoz
"Cause sitting keeping the wings level in cruise is MUCH more important than being in charge of a multi-million dollar aircraft during a difficult and skillful vertical take/off or landing- Sheesh!
wiz,

I think the Delta hiring gods are slowly coming around to seeing that Osprey pilots might be able to fly a B-717.

Don't get me started on the hiring gods...
bafanguy is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2023, 21:35
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Everett, WA
Age: 68
Posts: 4,403
Received 180 Likes on 88 Posts
Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever
I think we absolutely need a separate forum so all the EVTOL BS Fantastical Bafflegab, and Brown rice news posts can be sequestered there and not take up space on real aircraft forums.
Ah come on Big Pistons, stop mincing words - tell us how you really feel
tdracer is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2023, 07:15
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Kiwiland
Posts: 315
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever
I think we absolutely need a separate forum so all the EVTOL BS Fantastical Bafflegab, and Brown rice news posts can be sequestered there and not take up space on real aircraft forums.
absolutely….. this site is for pilots. Non-pilots should go elsewhere on their own website!
goeasy is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.