FO Threatens Capt. With Gun
The former Delta Air Lines co-pilot accused of threatening to shoot a commercial aircraft’s captain if he diverted the plane was the plaintiff in a failed U.S. Supreme Court objecting to a COVID vaccine mandate, according to a report. Jonathan Dunn, who was charged last month with interfering with a flight crew over the alleged threats in August 2022, had also served as a lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Air Force. Sources told CBS News that Dunn was the plaintiff in a case seeking to stop the Air Force from disciplining him for refusing to get a mandatory COVID vaccine on religious grounds. The court ultimately ruled against him in April 2022. In the August incident, Dunn is accused of threatening to shoot the captain “multiple times” if he diverted the flight over a passenger’s medical issue, according to the Transportation Department’s Office of Inspector General
Hiring from the military doesn't guarantee anything; humans are merely humans and it isn't pretty at times. The US pilot hiring process doesn't allow for some CP to go sniffing around in places he doesn't belong to get the dirt on an applicant:
Jonathan Dunn, who was charged last month with interfering with a flight crew over the alleged threats in August 2022, had also served as a lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Air Force.
SWA had a version of this lynch mob. Not sure if they still do. It's beneath contempt if they do:
https://flightinfo.com/threads/south.../#post-2556471
Jonathan Dunn, who was charged last month with interfering with a flight crew over the alleged threats in August 2022, had also served as a lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Air Force.
SWA had a version of this lynch mob. Not sure if they still do. It's beneath contempt if they do:
https://flightinfo.com/threads/south.../#post-2556471
Last edited by bafanguy; 2nd Nov 2023 at 21:43.
It appears from the press that he had refused to be vaccinated for Covid. That alone is an indicator of a person with a problem with an authority gradient, the bedrock of CRM. Refusal to be vaccinated in a couple of airlines I knew led to summary dismissal. The local courts (even if they took the case) considered that dismissal was fair as it could have affected the public health of the airline and the country. Your Courts may vary.. I doubt he refused to be vaccinated in his military days.
Apologies, back to the thread...
Apologies, back to the thread...
According to the 'Daily Beast' article quoted above, it was when he was with the US Air Force.
Sources told CBS News that Dunn was the plaintiff in a case seeking to stop the Air Force from disciplining him for refusing to get a mandatory COVID vaccine on religious grounds.
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I seem to remember that not so very long ago - in the UK with it's very strict firearm laws - a (duly authorized) armed bodyguard to an on board VIP managed to leave his loaded weapon in the toilet of a commercial aircraft. It was found by a rather shocked pax shortly thereafter and handed to an equally shocked hostie.
The consequences of this scarcely bear thinking about. (The so called "responsible" individual was, I understand, dismissed summarily from his close protection position - and subsequently from the force.)
The consequences of this scarcely bear thinking about. (The so called "responsible" individual was, I understand, dismissed summarily from his close protection position - and subsequently from the force.)
And here we have the problem in a nutshell.
'Nutjobs' as you so delicately put it, are not hired on purpose. Spotting them is not an exact science.
Who says you are 'mentally normal'? Most people who 'lose it' are normal most of the time.
Pilots are as human as the next person despite what they may believe.
'Nutjobs' as you so delicately put it, are not hired on purpose. Spotting them is not an exact science.
Who says you are 'mentally normal'? Most people who 'lose it' are normal most of the time.
Pilots are as human as the next person despite what they may believe.
So the prevalence of on-line psychometric tests, which can be taken by a candidate's 14 year old son, or indeed the whole family, gathered around the computer at home, somehow detects those who are not stable or not suitable for employment as a pilot in charge of hundreds of passenger's lives?
Recent incidents such as this, or the jump-seat pilot pulling the engine disconnect fire handles, or the Siberian crew who could not even de-ice correctly, and then failed to follow basic and simple memory drills, or the pilot who thought it was reasonable to source and take illegal drugs during a lay over before flying long-haul; would strongly suggest to me that pilot selection is concentrating on the wrong attributes and missing some fairly fundamental checks.
Thread Starter
strongly suggest to me that pilot selection is concentrating on the wrong attributes and missing some fairly fundamental checks
FO. Threatens Capt.with gun
Uplinker ; You are, of course, completely correct. AS are others who allude and recognise that selection has been dumbed down along with educational standards. You now have the dumbed down writing the selection criteria and administering.
The ideal, as expressed by the RAF Selection hand-out back in the sixties was that candidates should have no pre-conception of what the selection tests contain.
The ideal world is just a dream and the cat is ,usually, quickly out of the bag. But what we have these days is selection tests widely available, highly practiced by candidates, shared by candidates, which makes the ideal impossible and short-lived.
Expressing my view over on the Training forums about the laughable description of BA calling their latest training venture the "Speedbird Acadamy" where the net has been widened to include age of entry up to 55, selection tests are widely shared and discussed, interview techniques widely shared and discussed , actually, invoked less derision than I though and was tolerated in the spirit of the offering. Good opportunity to get into the profession and good on BA for making it possible.
Selection standards and criteria are nothing compared to the earlier days in this profession and the results will be predictable. Thankfully, the handful of cases discussed here will be in the minority and worthy of psychological help.
The ideal, as expressed by the RAF Selection hand-out back in the sixties was that candidates should have no pre-conception of what the selection tests contain.
The ideal world is just a dream and the cat is ,usually, quickly out of the bag. But what we have these days is selection tests widely available, highly practiced by candidates, shared by candidates, which makes the ideal impossible and short-lived.
Expressing my view over on the Training forums about the laughable description of BA calling their latest training venture the "Speedbird Acadamy" where the net has been widened to include age of entry up to 55, selection tests are widely shared and discussed, interview techniques widely shared and discussed , actually, invoked less derision than I though and was tolerated in the spirit of the offering. Good opportunity to get into the profession and good on BA for making it possible.
Selection standards and criteria are nothing compared to the earlier days in this profession and the results will be predictable. Thankfully, the handful of cases discussed here will be in the minority and worthy of psychological help.
Given the time the FFDO program has been running, the prevalence of mental illness in society and the culture surrounding firearms in the US, I’m surprised (and relieved) that incidents such as this are so rare, so something must be working.
Yes, you could question the utility of the program, but the execution of it seems to have been reasonable?
Yes, you could question the utility of the program, but the execution of it seems to have been reasonable?
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Disagreements between pilots that are not professionally and respectfully resolved require that BOTH want to argue. I'm thinking, not only a weirdo FO, but also a weirdo Captain. I, as have all of us, flown with both types.
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I'm just surprised that so far nobody has claimed that the answer is MORE guns on the flight deck
From a friend of the Captain at my airline,
“CA is a friend of mine, he’s a good dude, 100 percent not on the “list” 😂… I got the story last year - blew my mind seeing it finally hitting the news stands! Quick summary... Over CO enroute to SLC - got the FA call that a pax was in distress (chest pain?) and they had some medical assistance in the back… He told them to keep them posted so he could plan a medical diversion if necessary to possibly Grand Junction. Discussed with FO… FO said absolutely not, I think we press on to SLC.. Buddy was diplomatic as possible, something along the lines of; I respect your opinion, but, the decision is kind of 51/49 in my favor considering I am the captain of the ship, and GJT is the call if this pax goes south… FO points to his gun and says, I think this here says its 100 percent my decision… My buddy initially thought the dude was joking, then after pressing him a little bit, realized he wasn't joking, and the dude elevated the rhetoric. Ultimately, they end up in SLC, phone calls made, tapes pulled, sayonara FO Dunn…”
“CA is a friend of mine, he’s a good dude, 100 percent not on the “list” 😂… I got the story last year - blew my mind seeing it finally hitting the news stands! Quick summary... Over CO enroute to SLC - got the FA call that a pax was in distress (chest pain?) and they had some medical assistance in the back… He told them to keep them posted so he could plan a medical diversion if necessary to possibly Grand Junction. Discussed with FO… FO said absolutely not, I think we press on to SLC.. Buddy was diplomatic as possible, something along the lines of; I respect your opinion, but, the decision is kind of 51/49 in my favor considering I am the captain of the ship, and GJT is the call if this pax goes south… FO points to his gun and says, I think this here says its 100 percent my decision… My buddy initially thought the dude was joking, then after pressing him a little bit, realized he wasn't joking, and the dude elevated the rhetoric. Ultimately, they end up in SLC, phone calls made, tapes pulled, sayonara FO Dunn…”
I guess the fact that they ended up in SLC means that the situation was not bad enough to warrant a diversion. Also, if the passenger had suffered or even died because of this, surely the FO would have been charged with other crimes as well. But that's justa bit of hypothesizing from me of course.