No one wants to be a Captain.
Thread Starter
No one wants to be a Captain.
Why airlines can’t get enough captains
Reuters has a fascinating story about how many pilots at the major US airlines are avoiding the upgrade to captain, and it’s causing a problem for airlines:- At United Airlines, bids for roughly half of the captain vacancies have gone unfilled, meaning United can’t find enough first officers who want to become captains
- At American Airlines, more than 7,000 pilots have chosen not to take the captain upgrade, and the number of people declining the upgrade has at least doubled in the past seven years
This link give the new pay rates.
https://onemileatatime.com/news/airl...moted-captain/
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Netherlands
Age: 46
Posts: 343
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the issue is more with seniority, which makes the schedule very irregular for a beginning captain. Especially not great if you have a young family.
No captain for me
I was at a party with a SWA FO a while back. He was not bidding for the LHS till his daughter finished high school. He did not want to miss her sports games and the other things that do not come twice.
Made sense to me.
Made sense to me.
Yes. And seniority in seat has a much larger impact in the US than I remember it having in Europe. As a senior FO you can make as much as a junior Captain, and have more control over your vacation and days off. Current NB upgrade at both DL&UA is 1 year for those who want it. But holding a line that doesn’t work every weekend, and getting summer vacation or Christmas off could easily take 10 years.
This is turning into a golden age for younger pilots. I know a 23 year old on the 737 with United. If things continue like this and he gets a quick upgrade he could have nearly 40 years in the left seat. Things rarely work out as you expect. But compared to the restructurings of a few years ago this is truly an extraordinary period in the US.
No one wants to be a Captain
IN 1964, I was rejected by the BOAC/BEA, UK College of Air Training at Hamble for "not possessing in sufficient strength, all of the qualities looked for in a potential BOAC Captain". I fired back that I had no desire to become a BOAC Captain but dearly wanted to be a BOAC Third Officer so that other dudes could fly me around the world from one room party to to the other,
Head of Selection, ex BOAC Nav not possessing, in sufficient strength all of the sense of humour looked for in a potential mentor,failed to offer me a second try.
Years later, as a BA First Officer anyway, stuck in the Queen's Building at LHR on Trident SBY, I was preparing to leave having been offered jobs everywhere. I was astonished by some folk, one in particular, who was ready to serve at least another 15 years in the RHS because, as he put it, "Surely, it is a BA Command that is the focus-?"
Fast forward ten years and I had long forgotten what it was it was like in the RHS and in Paris, Chemps Elysee (sorry Frenchies for appalling spelling), layover, watching the Tour de France sweep into town, seated beside a US Legacy Carrier SFO who told me that he was on DC10, Based Paris, and wrote his own roster. He had , after decades, just been offered upgrade to Captain.It would be on a smelly 727, based somewhere even more smelly flying a six on two off roster. We both fell about larfing and missed who won the race !
Today however, big chance if you are focused on the LHS. Go for it.
Head of Selection, ex BOAC Nav not possessing, in sufficient strength all of the sense of humour looked for in a potential mentor,failed to offer me a second try.
Years later, as a BA First Officer anyway, stuck in the Queen's Building at LHR on Trident SBY, I was preparing to leave having been offered jobs everywhere. I was astonished by some folk, one in particular, who was ready to serve at least another 15 years in the RHS because, as he put it, "Surely, it is a BA Command that is the focus-?"
Fast forward ten years and I had long forgotten what it was it was like in the RHS and in Paris, Chemps Elysee (sorry Frenchies for appalling spelling), layover, watching the Tour de France sweep into town, seated beside a US Legacy Carrier SFO who told me that he was on DC10, Based Paris, and wrote his own roster. He had , after decades, just been offered upgrade to Captain.It would be on a smelly 727, based somewhere even more smelly flying a six on two off roster. We both fell about larfing and missed who won the race !
Today however, big chance if you are focused on the LHS. Go for it.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 2,524
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The US system is pretty flexible. It’s quite common for someone to bypass a narrowbody Captain slot for a more coveted widebody FO slot, or even stay as a senior narrowbody FO, while making more money and working less.
I spent six very happy years as a senior widebody FO with a major US Airline, best flying and best quality of life I ever had, only upgrading to the left seat when I had the seniority to do so as a line holder on the same type
Well worth the wait
Well worth the wait
It’s quite common for someone to bypass a narrowbody Captain slot for a more coveted widebody FO slot, or even stay as a senior narrowbody FO, while making more money and working less.
Is anyone aware of mandatory upgrades currently in place at major carriers? I thought that American Airlines had this policy at one time (“up or out”) and that a failure during the upgrade process resulted in termination from flying duties.
Certainly for some, myself included, the covid period has highlighted that when all is said and done it's being around friends and family that is most important. Not working every weekend. I'm not afraid to admit that it's completely changed my attitude to work and outlook/aspirations for my career. I know i signed up to a seniority based airline, but i'm simply not prepared to have my home life destroyed in the way it would be by taking a different seat, back at the bottom of a slow moving (almost idle) list. In other words, i'm not prepared to have my life ruined by my work.
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Tranquility Base
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The career of piloting is hitting fundamental shifts of the career choice influencing conditions.
1. Flying becomes cheaper and cheaper (lets not get distracted by the price surge after covid due to capacity constraints). This effect becomes even more prevalent when compared to the buying power of the populations. This means more and more people fly, meaning aviation need a higher percentage of young people from the overall population to convince them to become pilots.
2. The entry barriers into the job have increased. 1500h rule in the US, smaller military fleets, no full sponsorships anymore in Europe (although BA seems to revert that)
3. The job has become less attractive due to:
3.a: the work conditions have deteriorated, the job pays less
3.b: the work conditions have deteriorated: the job expects more work, giving less buffer for requesting and influencing private life
3.c: you don't need to be an airliner anymore to travel and see the world, because traveling became so much cheaper (see point 1.)
4. in the talent pool, where aspiring pilots are coming from, most other fitting jobs now offer much better work life balance:
4.a: remote working, home office
4.b: yearly hours account: you can make overtime one week and take 2 days off the next week, if it suits your private plans
4.c: holidays usually when you want and need it and not when the capacitiy planning allows it
4.d: in general not the lifelong external control over your life in terms of weekends, birthdays, important celebrations etc. like pilots have to endure under their assigned duty planning
5. the younger ones are reluctant to enter an industry that has a bad reputation with regard to climat
I am absolutely convinced if the industry wants to keep growing it will have to address these issues: meaning mostly to lower the entry barriers and to fundamentally change the work-lifestyle-balance of crews.
The industry will need to increase the amount of pilots more than just for growth, to offer better lifestyle to convince young people to get into the career. That will mean a fundamental rethink of the training model.
Alternatively you can cover the problem with a lot of money and offer part time to the guys who want more lifestyle.
1. Flying becomes cheaper and cheaper (lets not get distracted by the price surge after covid due to capacity constraints). This effect becomes even more prevalent when compared to the buying power of the populations. This means more and more people fly, meaning aviation need a higher percentage of young people from the overall population to convince them to become pilots.
2. The entry barriers into the job have increased. 1500h rule in the US, smaller military fleets, no full sponsorships anymore in Europe (although BA seems to revert that)
3. The job has become less attractive due to:
3.a: the work conditions have deteriorated, the job pays less
3.b: the work conditions have deteriorated: the job expects more work, giving less buffer for requesting and influencing private life
3.c: you don't need to be an airliner anymore to travel and see the world, because traveling became so much cheaper (see point 1.)
4. in the talent pool, where aspiring pilots are coming from, most other fitting jobs now offer much better work life balance:
4.a: remote working, home office
4.b: yearly hours account: you can make overtime one week and take 2 days off the next week, if it suits your private plans
4.c: holidays usually when you want and need it and not when the capacitiy planning allows it
4.d: in general not the lifelong external control over your life in terms of weekends, birthdays, important celebrations etc. like pilots have to endure under their assigned duty planning
5. the younger ones are reluctant to enter an industry that has a bad reputation with regard to climat
I am absolutely convinced if the industry wants to keep growing it will have to address these issues: meaning mostly to lower the entry barriers and to fundamentally change the work-lifestyle-balance of crews.
The industry will need to increase the amount of pilots more than just for growth, to offer better lifestyle to convince young people to get into the career. That will mean a fundamental rethink of the training model.
Alternatively you can cover the problem with a lot of money and offer part time to the guys who want more lifestyle.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Many years ago, a First Officer said to me that he felt I had enjoyed the Golden Age of aviation. I replied that no, I had enjoyed the Silver Age, and he would be suffering the Bronze Age. The more I see, the more I feel I was right.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 890
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As I’ve posted elsewhere if you think it’s got bad in this industry you go and have a look at every other industry where there has been at least equal and in many cases exponentially worse levels of decline. We’re still comparatively bloody lucky to do the job we do and it beats the living hell out of the vast majority of other jobs out there. Get some perspective.
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Tranquility Base
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry Rex, but that is simply not true. I am not talking about pension rules etc. which have worsened for everyone since the demographics just don't add up anymore.
You have to compare with jobs that neccessitate a similar technical expertise, seriousness and commitment to the job as piloting. Work conditions in such jobs have clearly not deteriorated. The opposite is true. Such employers do everything to keep you as the technical expertise is costly to rebuild with a new recruit. I laid out what the terms of such jobs nowadays entail in flexibility, work life balance, etc...
You have to compare with jobs that neccessitate a similar technical expertise, seriousness and commitment to the job as piloting. Work conditions in such jobs have clearly not deteriorated. The opposite is true. Such employers do everything to keep you as the technical expertise is costly to rebuild with a new recruit. I laid out what the terms of such jobs nowadays entail in flexibility, work life balance, etc...
I would be very surprised if the airlines will get the DOL to approve EB green card applications.