TAP extra long landing

[PoppaJo]

Originally Posted by Raduga-Burya

To be honest, too much hot air (and BS) here in the comments.
It was a bit of long float, get over it.
Having flown into FNC for over 20 years, things like this (and worse) happen and it is part of the process of flying into a Cat C airport with very specific conditions.
You should see how it is flying into Vágar in the Faroe Islands

Which part of the ops manual? Can’t see it in mine, can’t see it in my previous employers, can’t see it in my previous previous employers.

I guess we are all doing it wrong then. I’ll have a chat to my training department when I see them next week and remind them about the need to land half way down the runway. I’ll take my resignation letter with me at the same time.

[JW411]

Thank you for that; much appreciated.

[JanetFlight]

Originally Posted by rog747

Re the BAC 1-11 flying to FNC,
I am aware of Cabin Crews noting that Laker, BIA, and Dan Air 1-11's all going to Funchal,and possibly Cambrian Airways too.
One young lady I know was due to take a DA 727 there, but as it went Tech, so Dan Air laid on two 1-11's.

Certainly some of the German Charter airlines flew their 1-11's to FNC;
In early 1977 one of the Bavaria Flug Series 528FLs was modified with additional fuel tanks and a more spacious 95 seat cabin enabling the aircraft to operate non-stop services from Munich to the Canaries and Madeira. The company then merged with Germanair to become Bavaria Germanair Fluggesellschaft.
It is to be noted that Paninternational sent theirs to many far flung places, such as to Tenerife in the Canary Islands via Madrid or Seville, and to Funchal in Madeira via Lisbon. The airline also flew as far south as Mombasa in Kenya from Munich on regular charters via Athens, Cairo and Djibouti but occasionally used other way points where necessary.

Hi Dear Rog747

First of all many tanx for your kind attention with me and my apologies to the other members here because we all have in mind this is a very thread regarding a specific TAP landing at Madeira island...so sorry for the lil off topic.

You my friend really opened a Pandoras Box, because since yesterday evening im in contact with several aviation colleagues from Funchal and none of them has memories from the One Eleven at Funchal on their own airport.

Me also as a regular poster regarding Faro airport history (my working place for decades) for blogs, sites and Facebook groups cannot recall or remind at all any refuel ops here at Faro onroute to/from FNC with the 1-11.

Remember tons of Boeings, Caravelles, even the F28, but sadly no one here at Faro or Lisbon has memories from such 1-11's on route to/from Madeira.

However i fully respect what you've said, im not the owner of truth, but i will be extremely happy and grateful if you could show some pics or docs regarding the 1-11 ops at FNC, please.

Regarding FNC i remember the first 310 there (the Hapag as u said), the first 767 (BRA Safe) and iirc the very first 757 was the blue german LTS....all the rest back in the days resumed to the classic 737, 727 as well the mighty Caravelle.

By the way and as matter of curiosity here at Faro i remember seeing a BA L1011 Tristar doing refuel ops on a very special ops at Gibraltar (big boy, tiny rwy) on the beginning of 80's for some cruise ships on the Med Sea...yes, BA managed to opr the giant 1011 at small GIB back in those days.

Also back in that day, on another portuguese island, Sao Miguel, Azores, the Ponta Delgada (PDL) airport with also a small rwy such as FNC, aprox 1800mts, (but not so difficult app), started to receive some USA charter DC8s...the inaugural one was Airlift Intl of Miami.
TAP Air Postugal also did a 707 test flight in the small 1800 mts at PDL

All the best,,,JF

[First_Principal]

Originally Posted by rog747

If you get the chance when you visit Funchal...

I specifically logged in to 'like' your post, but see now that facility is not available on this sub-forum.

It was interesting and informative, and made a change to the general berating (1) of pilot's unknown (2) without possession of full facts (3) despite the successful landing...

FP.

[Greta_Thunberg]

Originally Posted by First_Principal

It was interesting and informative, and made a change to the general berating (1) of pilot's unknown (2) without possession of full facts (3) despite the successful landing...

Someone else said it earlier, but it's like this thread is in playing out in a parallel universe. None of that matters, unless perhaps they were on fire, there is simply no excuse for that dangerous approach.

I was taught there are are soft SOPs (>250kts below FL100, securing the cabin slightly below 10,000 due holding, sterile cockpit rule <FL100 for especially funny anecdotes etc). Then there are hard SOPs: stabilising the approach, reacting to a TCAS, a stall or a GPWS, and assuring the landing is made inside down zone! Deciding which of those soft and grey areas can be tweaked on a given day is part of why a captain is paid to be a captain. Knowingly ignoring the hard and golden rules; simply no defence.

Thought experiment for those that think this is a storm in a teacup... Which crystal clear/absolute rules/SOPs that your airline PAYS you to respect... do you feel emboldened to disregard at say a CAT C airport as someone above suggested?

[FlightDetent]

The skilled guys:
Fighting on the radio about wind components overhead Funchal

Me, sitting on the ramp at PXO, having tankered fuel for the whole return trip to LIS, alternate OPO, and all reserves:
"Skip, did you get the stamps for Madeira? I never got qualified..."

Him: "Ain't stupid."

​​​​​​#sweetmemories


​​

[rog747]

Originally Posted by First_Principal

I specifically logged in to 'like' your post, but see now that facility is not available on this sub-forum.

It was interesting and informative, and made a change to the general berating (1) of pilot's unknown (2) without possession of full facts (3) despite the successful landing...

FP.

Many thanks indeed for yours, and also for JW411's most kind words.

Landings at FNC will always be an emotive and rather lively topic - Just like most of the Touchdowns LOL!

[rog747]

Originally Posted by JanetFlight

Hi Dear Rog747

First of all many thanks for your kind attention with me and my apologies to the other members here because we all have in mind this is a very thread regarding a specific TAP landing at Madeira island...so sorry for the lil off topic.

You my friend really opened a Pandora's Box, because since yesterday evening im in contact with several aviation colleagues from Funchal and none of them has memories from the One Eleven at Funchal on their own airport.
Me also as a regular poster regarding Faro airport history (my working place for decades) for blogs, sites and Facebook groups cannot recall or remind at all any refuel ops here at Faro onroute to/from FNC with the 1-11.
Sadly no one here at Faro or Lisbon has memories from such 1-11's on route to/from Madeira.
However i fully respect what you've said, and will be extremely happy and grateful if you could show some pics or docs regarding the 1-11 ops at FNC, please.

Regarding FNC i remember the first A310 there (the Hapag as u said), the first 767 (BRA Safe) and iirc the very first 757 was the blue german LTS....all the rest back in the days resumed to the classic 737, 727 as well the mighty Caravelle.
Yes, I have just seen the LTS 757 photo at FNC, and a Condor 757 too - both there in the later 1980's !

All the best,,,JF

Hi there JF,
many thanks indeed for your most kind and detailed responses to my (sorry) slightly O/T stories of the very interesting landings at FNC over the years, and my apologies for opening a Pandora's Box!

I have indeed some BAC 1-11 at Madeira FNC stories for you - sadly no photos (we did not take that many back in the 1970's and 1980's)

Funchal BAC 1-11 operations - Dan Air

A Passenger recalls flying on Dan Air BAC 1-11 517 G-BCWA from Birmingham BHX to Funchal, via a refuelling stop at SCQ Santiago de Compostela in February 1978.
It was replacing a scheduled Dan-Air Boeing 727-100, several of which were stuck at Porto Santo waiting for an improvement in the weather at nearby Madeira.

July 01 1974
Dan Air BAC 1-11 414 G-AZED LGW-LIS-FNC-LIS-LGW noted in Skipper's logbook.
He quotes ‘’We used to go with the 1-11, I remember the landing roll coming very close to the end!
No great barrier... just a bloody sheer drop; Like landing on an aircraft carrier!
The late great Bob Andrews outbound, and Frank Buxton inbound.
I don't know why 2 Captains, probably a Fam trip into Funchal for Bob.

Quote from a Dan Air Stewardess,
‘’I flew into Funchal on the 1-11 many times. A very exciting approach with one wing pointing down at the waves and the other wing pointing up at the sky!
One time we went through that approach only to have to overshoot and go through it all again as a truck drove across the runway!

I am waiting for any other anecdotes JF, from BIA British Island Airways, Laker staff/crews if they ever flew there.

Best R.

Edit - Cambrian Airways did not fly their 1-11's to FNC.
They did go to the Canary Islands.

[ATC Watcher]

Originally Posted by Greta_Thunberg

........None of that matters, unless perhaps they were on fire, there is simply no excuse for that dangerous approach.

Common ! Do you have all the facts to pass this kind of judgement ? you ( and I ) were not in that cockpit , you are just reacting emotionally to a Youtube video.
As to SOPs, yes there is a bible , but have you ever flown in Africa ? I mean as PIC ? You will quickly learn there are SOPs and heir unwritten deviations called " local best practices" and then there are situations that fall outside those 2 categories in which either experience or luck are neceessary to succeeed. , Sometimes it is choosing between 2 evils. and you generally choose the least dangerous one.

FUNC is not in Africa, and TAP is not a Bush outfit I grant you that . I have no idea as to why this TAP PIC did decide to continue the landing well passed the touchdwn area instead of going around , but he or she has made a judgement that worked in the end, Whether that judgement was made using experinece , or was it luck , you and I do not know.
I am giving him or her the benefit of the doubt and I would not have liked to have been in this situation.

[rog747]

FAO JanetFlight

Quote from an old pal former MD, at Palmair/Bath Travel, and worked at Laker Airways -
''Amongst my memorabilia I have a number of bound Lord Brothers brochures (owned by Laker Airways) and the Summer 1974 edition suggests that Laker 1-11 300's operated LGW-FNC albeit with a tech stop in both directions.'' (Fuel Stop TBC but I think it was LIS)

Also from more Laker Airways Staff -
''Yes we did. Normally if I remember correctly it was a Wednesday weekly flight to Madeira.
Cannot remember if it was for Lord Bros, or for Wings Holidays, or both!''

Quote from a Laker Stewardess -
''Yes they did. It was one of my first flights in 1974!''

Also from a pal at BIA British Island Airways Gatwick Ops - and now confirmed by BIA's old Boss Peter Villa...
We sure did with the BAC 1-11 400 series - PXO Porto Santo was the stop for fuel.

Hope this helps JF!
Plenty for you to chat about with your old colleagues over a Coffee and a Pastel de Nata!

Best R.


1974 package holidays

Lakers Jets - they owned Lord Bros Holidays

[Airbanda]

Interesting thread for those of us who watch the planes and have an insatiable curiosity about the technical stuff.

Landings that float a bit beyond the TD markers at FNC are pretty frequent. As already pointed out by others it's an effect of the wind changing and having added a few knots to the ref speed in case that change increases RoD.

This one was way beyond that category. Not just a bit of float but actually climbing, unless the runway drops away due downslope.

Almost as if a go around was started and then abandoned - surefire route to an overrun as any number of accident reports show...

[JanetFlight]

Dear Rog747...Many tanx for the kind words and attention with me.

It was a delight reading those quotes from your aviation colleagues, basically, "Our" aviation colleagues.

Its very curious and peculiar, and with such value, that no one at Funchal remembers that, however i fully believe your friends quotes and also your two interesting pics...tks for that.

As i told you before regarding Faro history im almost sure about 80%of the history things...regarding Funchal lets say around 60...lol

But now you really made me dig deeper and deeper towards my FNC friends and colleagues...for sure someone must have some 1-11 pics there back in the 70s, early 80's for sure if that was the case.

I remember here at Faro back in the day, the 1-11s from different operators at summer hot days, waiting for the sunset to fall down the external temperatute and could "reach the sky" even on a 2500 mts rwy.

To be honest i never heard about the 1-11 on such a small rwy as Funchal, but im aware that Faucett used it on such small and high rwys on the Peruvian Andes foothills....How? I really dont know

But here in Faro on hot days the DanAirs, the BIAs, the Cymrus and even the old Bcals, and not to even mention Lakers...wow....they run, and run, and run, and run...till the very last inch of tar, and then....up to the sky....but slowwwwwwwwwwwww...and we were happy, bcause those were the days <3

[Airbanda]

Originally Posted by JanetFlight

To be honest i never heard about the 1-11 on such a small rwy as Funchal

Not directly comparable but Aer Lingus flew their 1-11 200s off the original 5400' 15/33 runway at Leeds/Bradford from the late sixties on.

Mainly on schedules to Dublin but occasionally further afield on charters albeit presumably with limited pax numbers.

[FUMR]

I flew into LBA on a BMA Bac 1-11 500 in March 1971. I think that by then it had been extended but not by much. Anyone know?

[Airbanda]

Originally Posted by FUMR

I flew into LBA on a BMA Bac 1-11 500 in March 1971. I think that by then it had been extended but not by much. Anyone know?

Once the SE/NW 15/33 runway was finished c1964/5 it was 5400 feet.

In 1984 the extension to 7380 feet was completed but displaced thresholds limit LDA from either end.

[rog747]

Originally Posted by JanetFlight

Dear Rog747...
Many thanks for the kind words and attention with me.
It was a delight reading those quotes from your aviation colleagues, basically, "Our" aviation colleagues.
It's very curious and peculiar, and with such value, that no one at Funchal remembers that, however i fully believe your friends quotes and also your two interesting pics...tks for that.
As i told you before regarding Faro history im almost sure about 80% of the history things...regarding Funchal let's say around 60%...lol
But now you really made me dig deeper and deeper towards my FNC friends and colleagues...
for sure someone must have some 1-11 pics there back in the 70s, early 80's for sure if that was the case.
I remember here at Faro back in the day, the 1-11s from different operators at summer hot days, waiting for the sunset to fall down the external temperature and could "reach the sky" even on a 2500 mts rwy.
To be honest i never heard about the 1-11 on such a small runway as Funchal.
But here in Faro on hot days the Dan Airs, the BIAs, the Cymrus and even the old Bcals, and not to even mention Lakers...wow....they run, and run, and run, and run...till the very last inch of tar, and then....up to the sky....but slow!...and we were happy, because those were the days <3

Dear JF,
Sadly despite searches and many requests it appears that no Funchal BAC 1-11 photos exist on the Web,
but for sure, some holiday makers would have taken plenty of snaps whilst boarding the plane at the FNC airport!

The BAC 1-11 500 used to go into LBA Leeds Bradford with British Midland back from 1970 onwards as mentioned in the Post by FUMR above, LBA was the same short runway length as FNC.

The 1-11's would normally always use Water Injection (De-Min water) to assist in extra power for take-offs in High Temps such as departures off very short runways and even at Faro Corfu, and at PXO.

Anecdotes from Laker Airways Crews who flew to Funchal are below:
We think Laker began holiday flights Gatwick to Madeira from around 1972 onwards -

1/
Yes, Laker Airways did fly into Funchal.
This was before the runway was extended and it was always a challenge as the wind from each end of the runway was always 180 deg opposite and the wind in the middle of the runway was always calm. As I remember it we used to position visually over a white building at 800 feet in a right turn onto the final approach. The limits for operating into FNC were quite high and only flight checked captains could do those trips.

2/
I flew on the jump seat as a Laker "Flying Spanner" to carry out the turnarounds to Funchal in April 1973. The Captain used to issue us with a Ticket for the trip to make things legal I suppose. Capt. Tom Smallman was my Captain to Funchal and Peter Dolosso was F/O. The landing at Funchal those days was more like landing on an aircraft carrier. I think we stopped at Lisbon for fuel on one, perhaps both of the sectors.

3/
A Laker Airways Hostess recalls,
''Yes they did. It was one of my first flights in 1974!''


A Dan Air skipper recalls -
I flew from Gatwick to Funchal on 24/06/80. The aircraft was G-BEKA (a BAC 1-11 520 series)
We had a full load of 119 passengers to take out of there and in those days the runway was only 1600 metres long.
When I calculated the performance, we could only take 3000 kgs of fuel out of there.
Needless to say, that meant a quick hop across to Porto Santo where we fully refuelled for Gatwick.
Had to uplift demineralised water to do a wet takeoff from Porto Santo and even then we used every inch of the runway!
I recorded in my logbook that we clocked up 12 hours 25 minutes on duty that day so had to file a discretionary report.
Happy days!

And another -
Ah, the old water injection system!
I remember one day in July 1989 the two of us at Faro pumping in 300 litres of the stuff in 30+ degrees with a hand pump.
The electric pump hadn’t been loaded on board and the only one available from Dan Air was this hand pump.
The flight deck didn’t smell too well on the way home!

Another reply -
''I remember doing the same at Funchal.
Sweating buckets by the end of it.
As if that wasn’t enough, halfway down the runway the demineralised water pump on the number one engine packed up so it went down to dry power.
This was before they extended the runway on stilts at Funchal so as you can imagine we used every bloody inch of it!
Had to tech stop in Faro on the way home and go through the whole process again using the hand pump.
I think I threw that uniform shirt away when I got home.
And we call them the ‘good old days?’'

I guess 737-800 and A321 Flight Crews ''these days'' have things a tad more easy now when down route lol.

BTW-
I also need to see if Airways International Cymru 1-11’s (and also Monarch) ever flew into Funchal too but I think not.

Best R.




Laker Flying Spanner duty travel tickets in 1973.

[hans brinker]

Originally Posted by ATC Watcher

Common ! Do you have all the facts to pass this kind of judgement ? you ( and I ) were not in that cockpit , you are just reacting emotionally to a Youtube video.
As to SOPs, yes there is a bible , but have you ever flown in Africa ? I mean as PIC ? You will quickly learn there are SOPs and heir unwritten deviations called " local best practices" and then there are situations that fall outside those 2 categories in which either experience or luck are neceessary to succeeed. , Sometimes it is choosing between 2 evils. and you generally choose the least dangerous one.

FUNC is not in Africa, and TAP is not a Bush outfit I grant you that . I have no idea as to why this TAP PIC did decide to continue the landing well passed the touchdwn area instead of going around , but he or she has made a judgement that worked in the end, Whether that judgement was made using experinece , or was it luck , you and I do not know.
I am giving him or her the benefit of the doubt and I would not have liked to have been in this situation.

5 years PIC ACMI wet lease in the EU and north Africa. 6 years PIC corporate north & Central America. Now 8 years PIC FAA 121. 25+ years total. And not calling you out personally, more the post about it being " a successful landing" above I can't find.
"working in the end"/"successful" are not the measurements to be used to judge ourselves. I am pretty sure that on every GA I have done on an ILS in my career, we would have successfully landed, just like I am pretty sure, if I would have ignored every RA or GPWS warning, there is a good chance I would have survived.
And that is the problem. I have flown maybe 10000 flights total in all those years. There are 100000 flights per DAY. If all of us would take what we perceive as an acceptable risk once a year, and it goes wrong 1% of the time, it would still lead to an unacceptable raise in the number of crashes. And I am not saying I haven't done the same. But condoning it is not the right thing.

[Doors to Automatic]

Having watched the landing several times, by my calculations the aircraft landed more than halfway down the runway. Counting the number of centreline markings, the A321 landed on the ninth marking beyond the TDZ. After this point there was around 800 feet of runway before the opposite end TDZ, followed by 3000 feet of TDZ and finally around 500 feet beyond the displaced threshold before running out of runway. So a total of around 4300 feet. Enough to stop, but I wouldn’t have liked to try it given the sheer drop beyond the end.

[Lookleft]

So a total of around 4300 feet. Enough to stop, but I wouldn’t have liked to try it given the sheer drop beyond the end.

As many of the airline pilots who actually have posted have stated ITS NOT THE BLOODY POINT! You have a TDZ and a certain latitude either side of it. Its what the landing figures are predicated on. and its what any half decent airline pilot should be able to achieve. What this video shows is a crew who have put the fate of their lives and that of the passengers in the laws of physics as they have left SOPS, skill and any sense of professionalism way, way behind them. They have decided to become test pilots and have bought the pax along for the ride. Runway excursions continue to be a problem and the reluctance to go-around is a good reason why. The only point that you are committed to the landing is when the thrust reversers have deployed. The sad reality is, probably this crew were more concerned about doing a go-around than they were running off the end. They more than likely thought that there was enough room to stop but had no numbers, technique or SOPs on which to base that decision on. All they had were wide eyes and four feet on the brake pedals.

[safetypee]

There have been several references to TDZ, but AFAIR this relates to runway markings and not aircraft landing performance. Similarly 'margins'; what margin - distance, how is this established and how judged in actual operation. Landing performance is based on a calculated (assumed) touchdown position, together with an assumed spread of normal performance, but what is normal.

Overrun events are relatively rare, but how many near-miss are there, how are these judged.

Academic views discuss press-on-itis as a feeling of being in control, biased by prior experienced or the progress of this event - as understood by the crew - their point of view - of being in control.

Other academics note that we tend not to learn from near misses - the outcomes were 'safe', we lack ability to judge the margins of safety; we choose not to learn because 'we would not have done that', but how do we know.

The roles of monitoring (self and crew) and alerting, are issues of CRM; these are repeatedly cited in accident reports - more training. Yet does the industry consider, learn, and accept that these concepts are limited, and perhaps as in this incident the humans were 'max out'. We might never know.
Does this crew know; only by reflection, which is subject to hindsight bias, as are most posted comments and opinion in this thread (note to self).