TAP extra long landing
0:25 wings level (before correcting to the other side). 0:42 crossed the threshold. 0:59 touchdown.
17 seconds in stable condition on final (about 200' above the TDZE). That alone should have been a GA.
17 seconds form the threshold to touchdown (about 5000'). That alone should have been a GA.
Is there an echo in here?
And it does look like a ANU input between 0:48/0:50. Wind gust tend to lift the acft horizontally, here you see the nose come up.
17 seconds in stable condition on final (about 200' above the TDZE). That alone should have been a GA.
17 seconds form the threshold to touchdown (about 5000'). That alone should have been a GA.
Is there an echo in here?
And it does look like a ANU input between 0:48/0:50. Wind gust tend to lift the acft horizontally, here you see the nose come up.
SAC are there for a reason and it would be interesting to know the flight deck dynamics that led them to continue to a very deep landing over half way down the runway, especially given what the overrun area looks like.
Their fuel or technical status would be interesting to know.
A stable approach and a landing in the TDZ are two not necessarily mutual things. The approach looked great to me, given it was a circle. Plenty of nose-up the whole way in, no drastic pitch or roll yugs.
The landing: had they gone down another 2 feet it would have been perfect, right on the big white squares. Unfortunately, they overflared just a tad and the rest is history.
If there's any doubt, there's no doubt. Go around!
The landing: had they gone down another 2 feet it would have been perfect, right on the big white squares. Unfortunately, they overflared just a tad and the rest is history.
If there's any doubt, there's no doubt. Go around!
They also picked up an increase in HWC by the looks of it, the wheel height increases from a slow reduction with no obvious attitude change, that suggests a good gust. At the eventual touchdown, that is the "2" thousand ft remaining marker in front of the nose, off the other side of the runway, they are not much less than 3K from the end... nice to have carbon brakes....
Pegase Driver
One thing that has not changed much I think from my time though is fuel management. Most are filing LPPS as alternate, but .on some days weather conditions are very similar in both islands and landing on 01 in PXO with a strong gusty wind is not without its challenges. The next alternates are in the Canaries, ( Arrecife) so fuel might possibly have been a factor here. But I have no particilar info on the fuel status of that flight .
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: 2019
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If they had expected the weather to be that challenging in both FNC and PXO then take enough fuel for a third alternate instead of putting themselves in the position where they are committing to FNC. Offload passengers as necessary to get the fuel load you want. That's nothing new in aviation, any captain afraid of doing that should hand over their fourth stripe.
It was likely planned using the following set of METARS/TAFs, Porto Santo looks sensible but if experience dictates otherwise, nominate Fuerteventura.METAR LPPS 291500Z 06013KT 020V090 9999 FEW013 24/18 Q1023=METAR LPPS 291530Z 06014KT 030V090 9999 FEW013 24/19 Q1023=
TAF LPMA 291100Z 2912/3012 04017KT 9999 FEW013
TEMPO 2912/2918 03020G32KT
BECMG 2918/2920 01015KT SCT015
TEMPO 2920/3012 01018G30KT BKN015=
TAF LPPS 291100Z 2912/3018 05012KT 9999 FEW012
PROB30 TEMPO 2912/2918 06015G25KT
BECMG 2918/2920 SCT015
TEMPO 2920/3018 SCT015 BKN030=
TAF GCRR 290800Z 2909/3009 01017KT CAVOK
TX31/2914Z TN22/3006Z
PROB30 TEMPO 2909/2916 01016G26KT
TEMPO 2916/3009 01023G33KT=
TAF GCFV 290800Z 2909/3009 05015KT CAVOK TX32/2914Z TN21/3006Z BECMG 2917/2919 35013KT PROB30 TEMPO 3007/3009 36018G28KT=
It was likely planned using the following set of METARS/TAFs, Porto Santo looks sensible but if experience dictates otherwise, nominate Fuerteventura.METAR LPPS 291500Z 06013KT 020V090 9999 FEW013 24/18 Q1023=METAR LPPS 291530Z 06014KT 030V090 9999 FEW013 24/19 Q1023=
TAF LPMA 291100Z 2912/3012 04017KT 9999 FEW013
TEMPO 2912/2918 03020G32KT
BECMG 2918/2920 01015KT SCT015
TEMPO 2920/3012 01018G30KT BKN015=
TAF LPPS 291100Z 2912/3018 05012KT 9999 FEW012
PROB30 TEMPO 2912/2918 06015G25KT
BECMG 2918/2920 SCT015
TEMPO 2920/3018 SCT015 BKN030=
TAF GCRR 290800Z 2909/3009 01017KT CAVOK
TX31/2914Z TN22/3006Z
PROB30 TEMPO 2909/2916 01016G26KT
TEMPO 2916/3009 01023G33KT=
TAF GCFV 290800Z 2909/3009 05015KT CAVOK TX32/2914Z TN21/3006Z BECMG 2917/2919 35013KT PROB30 TEMPO 3007/3009 36018G28KT=
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Having a margarita on the beach
Posts: 2,423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys, its a landing beyond the touchdown zone, which is a mandatory go around but please stop speculating about the stability of the approach and how it was flown; we know nothing about it.
Looks like they (wrongly) wanted to grease the landing by keeping some thrust in during the flare and in addition they probably hit a gust which increased lift and they ended up floating. Classic no-no stuff but thats about it. I am 150% sure that, unless the flight data monitoring shows that something else was cocked up (like showing up way faster than the stabilized approach limits) they have learnt the lesson and after a tea and biscuits style debrief theyll be good to go and you can bet your money they will never do it again.
Looks like they (wrongly) wanted to grease the landing by keeping some thrust in during the flare and in addition they probably hit a gust which increased lift and they ended up floating. Classic no-no stuff but thats about it. I am 150% sure that, unless the flight data monitoring shows that something else was cocked up (like showing up way faster than the stabilized approach limits) they have learnt the lesson and after a tea and biscuits style debrief theyll be good to go and you can bet your money they will never do it again.
some float
That's Quite some float there -
Sadly got me thinking of the TAP425 727-200 CS-TBR 1977 crash at FNC (long landing and flare, on the very short 5000' runway, overran down onto the beach in poor weather/heavy rain)
An awful bad weather night, and making an Approach on his 3rd attempt with fuel now down in minimums, or less.
The alternates were PXO and LPA.
After the accident occurred, TAP stopped flying the Boeing 727-200 to Madeira, and started flying only the 727-100.
The crash prompted officials to explore ways of extending the short runway. Because of the height of the runway relative to the beach below, an extension was very difficult and too expensive to perform. Between 1983 and 1986, a 200-meter extension was built;
FNC Santa Catarina Airport located about 13 km from the city of Funchal.
Its single runway, in 1977, oriented in the directions 049ş and 229ş true (06—24) and was just 1,600 meters long and 45 meters wide (a usable length of 1,540 meters due to the threshold shifted by 60 meters, with no zones (STOPWAY) beyond the runway).
The elevation is 58 meters at 24, and 42 meters at the head of 06.
The runway ends at drops at both ends practically on the coast.
At the beginning of 06 there is only one widening for the turning circle; at the beginning 24, is a similar widening, and neither at the extreme runway ends are there any aircraft restraint devices.
FNC Funchal, in the early days with the very short runway, 5,249 ft. The airport had a single terminal, which opened in 1973.
The first types to use the Runway in 1964 were TAP's Super Constellations. TAP began 727-82 flights to FNC in 1968.
The first charter Jets to fly there were 737-200's, Caravelle, BAC 1-11, and the 727-100.
Flights returning back to the UK or Germany usually had to fully refuel at PXO Porto Santo.
Or at Oporto, or Santiago de Compostela.
TAP's LHR 727-82 and 727-282 flights stopped at Lisbon going back.
You can make out the stone bridge that the TAP 727 ended up on and below on the beach and in the sea.
TAP 727 CS-TBR Sacadura Cabral lost at FNC 1977
The 1970's Terminal at FNC
A friend who was a Sterling Airways Super Caravelle and 727-200 skipper says -
When the runway was only 1800 meters it was sloping downwards from threshold RWY 24 (now 23).
So we landed very hard there. We called it an arrival, not a landing.
On RWY 24 one had to make sure to come down firmly to get maximum use of ground spoilers and brakes as the downslope made the runway feel even shorter.
On RWY 06 there was a steep approach angle to the runway.
From both directions there was often turbulence close to the threshold.
Landings were limited to 15 knots of X-wind.
Haven´t been there since runway extension. I understand it is almost 1000 m longer now, have they done anything about the sloping runway?
Hapag Lloyd flew the first A310-304 into Funchal Madeira in the 1990's on the short 1800m runway.
Sadly got me thinking of the TAP425 727-200 CS-TBR 1977 crash at FNC (long landing and flare, on the very short 5000' runway, overran down onto the beach in poor weather/heavy rain)
An awful bad weather night, and making an Approach on his 3rd attempt with fuel now down in minimums, or less.
The alternates were PXO and LPA.
After the accident occurred, TAP stopped flying the Boeing 727-200 to Madeira, and started flying only the 727-100.
The crash prompted officials to explore ways of extending the short runway. Because of the height of the runway relative to the beach below, an extension was very difficult and too expensive to perform. Between 1983 and 1986, a 200-meter extension was built;
FNC Santa Catarina Airport located about 13 km from the city of Funchal.
Its single runway, in 1977, oriented in the directions 049ş and 229ş true (06—24) and was just 1,600 meters long and 45 meters wide (a usable length of 1,540 meters due to the threshold shifted by 60 meters, with no zones (STOPWAY) beyond the runway).
The elevation is 58 meters at 24, and 42 meters at the head of 06.
The runway ends at drops at both ends practically on the coast.
At the beginning of 06 there is only one widening for the turning circle; at the beginning 24, is a similar widening, and neither at the extreme runway ends are there any aircraft restraint devices.
FNC Funchal, in the early days with the very short runway, 5,249 ft. The airport had a single terminal, which opened in 1973.
The first types to use the Runway in 1964 were TAP's Super Constellations. TAP began 727-82 flights to FNC in 1968.
The first charter Jets to fly there were 737-200's, Caravelle, BAC 1-11, and the 727-100.
Flights returning back to the UK or Germany usually had to fully refuel at PXO Porto Santo.
Or at Oporto, or Santiago de Compostela.
TAP's LHR 727-82 and 727-282 flights stopped at Lisbon going back.
You can make out the stone bridge that the TAP 727 ended up on and below on the beach and in the sea.
TAP 727 CS-TBR Sacadura Cabral lost at FNC 1977
The 1970's Terminal at FNC
A friend who was a Sterling Airways Super Caravelle and 727-200 skipper says -
When the runway was only 1800 meters it was sloping downwards from threshold RWY 24 (now 23).
So we landed very hard there. We called it an arrival, not a landing.
On RWY 24 one had to make sure to come down firmly to get maximum use of ground spoilers and brakes as the downslope made the runway feel even shorter.
On RWY 06 there was a steep approach angle to the runway.
From both directions there was often turbulence close to the threshold.
Landings were limited to 15 knots of X-wind.
Haven´t been there since runway extension. I understand it is almost 1000 m longer now, have they done anything about the sloping runway?
Hapag Lloyd flew the first A310-304 into Funchal Madeira in the 1990's on the short 1800m runway.
Last edited by rog747; 4th Jul 2023 at 16:20.
There has to be another factor in this landing. The approach actually looks fine. The aircraft is properly positioned and at the correct speed based on AOA in the video. The actual touchdown is not that far before the 2000 foot remaining sign. There is no way that aircraft floated 5000-6000 feet from the initial flare with the power at idle. For some reason the thrust was not retarded in the flare as commanded on the Airbus. If you watch the AOA on the aircraft it actually accelerates in ground effect.
For some reason the thrust was not retarded in the flare as commanded on the Airbus
HF 310 as well the Boeing 767-200 of Braathens SAFE...the very first two wide bodies used at FNC.
The 757 is a beast and has 4 wheel trucks. Delta had a 757 abort after rotation at SNA going to ATL. Despite being well past V1 they stopped on the runway. Not bad for a 5700 foot runway with a full load on a 1700 mile flight.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Gangsters Paradise
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To be honest, too much hot air (and BS) here in the comments.
It was a bit of long float, get over it.
Having flown into FNC for over 20 years, things like this (and worse) happen and it is part of the process of flying into a Cat C airport with very specific conditions.
You should see how it is flying into Vágar in the Faroe Islands
It was a bit of long float, get over it.
Having flown into FNC for over 20 years, things like this (and worse) happen and it is part of the process of flying into a Cat C airport with very specific conditions.
You should see how it is flying into Vágar in the Faroe Islands
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: 2019
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To be honest, too much hot air (and BS) here in the comments.
It was a bit of long float, get over it.
Having flown into FNC for over 20 years, things like this (and worse) happen and it is part of the process of flying into a Cat C airport with very specific conditions.
You should see how it is flying into Vágar in the Faroe Islands
It was a bit of long float, get over it.
Having flown into FNC for over 20 years, things like this (and worse) happen and it is part of the process of flying into a Cat C airport with very specific conditions.
You should see how it is flying into Vágar in the Faroe Islands
Delaying (or forgetting) to retard the A320 family thrust levers during flare increases the landing distance because the autothrust will target Vapp (or the selected speed) until it is disconnected by moving the levers to the IDLE detent. That is, the thrust increases as the speed bleeds off.
The Bac 1-11 was never used in Madeira.
HF 310 as well the Boeing 767-200 of Braathens SAFE...the very first two wide bodies used at FNC.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/spotte...or/51023472721
HF 310 as well the Boeing 767-200 of Braathens SAFE...the very first two wide bodies used at FNC.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/spotte...or/51023472721
Thanks!, I never knew of them ever visiting FNC.
Their 767's were quite a stunning sight, and I often saw the 2 of them on the ground together at Palma.
They were sold on after summer 1986 as they were deemed too big for the airline.
Britannia Airways did not go for them at the time, as the BU 767's had PW engines.
In the photo one can see the large old Atlantis Hotel which was demolished to make way for the FNC Runway extension works in 2000.
The TAP crews often stayed there on nightstops.
Re the BAC 1-11 flying to FNC,
I am aware of Cabin Crews noting that Laker, BIA, and Dan Air 1-11's all going to Funchal,and possibly Cambrian Airways too.
One young lady I know was due to take a DA 727 there, but as it went Tech, so Dan Air laid on two 1-11's.
Certainly some of the German Charter airlines flew their 1-11's to FNC;
In early 1977 one of the Bavaria Flug Series 528FLs was modified with additional fuel tanks and a more spacious 95 seat cabin enabling the aircraft to operate non-stop services from Munich to the Canaries and Madeira. The company then merged with Germanair to become Bavaria Germanair Fluggesellschaft.
It is to be noted that Paninternational sent theirs to many far flung places, such as to Tenerife in the Canary Islands via Madrid or Seville, and to Funchal in Madeira via Lisbon. The airline also flew as far south as Mombasa in Kenya from Munich on regular charters via Athens, Cairo and Djibouti but occasionally used other way points where necessary.
Re: The Air Finland/Finnair 757 about a decade ago that touched much more ahead than this one, and with successful braking action
It has to be said that both the 757 and the A320/A321 have rather good brakes...The 757 truly is a beast with its 4 wheel trucks.
FYI
The Funchal Runway Extension.
The existing 1800m runway was again extended in 2000, this time to 2,781 m (9,124 ft).
As landfill was not a realistic option, the extension was built on a platform, partly over the ocean, supported by 180 columns, each about 70 m (230 ft) tall.
Last edited by rog747; 5th Jul 2023 at 07:08. Reason: bits and bobs added
If you get the chance when you visit Funchal, there is a small Museum on the town's promenade where they have an Aquila Airways display, and opposite on the prom is the preserved Tender Launch that was used to take the passengers out to the Flying Boats moored in the bay. I have attached some photos of my visit a few years ago.
Many notable persons such as Sir Winston Churchill would take their winter holidays in Madeira, flying down on Aquila, and stay at the famous Reid's Hotel (do go for Afternoon Tea on their terrace).
Sadly Aquila Airways did suffer a couple of accidents on their Madeira services, the most notable crash was in 1957 on the Isle of Wight, which basically finished the Company off,
being then at the time, the worst ever air disaster to occur on English soil.
The aircraft, a Short Solent 3 flying boat named the City of Sydney, registered G-AKNU, departed Southampton Water at 22:46 on a night flight to Las Palmas and Madeira via Lisbon.
At 22:54 the crew radioed to report that the #4 propeller had been feathered, ''Coming back in a hurry''.
#3 engine would also fail.
During an attempt to return, the Solent crashed into a disused chalk pit adjacent to heavily forested downland.
The crash site is on a steep eastern slope of Shalcombe Down, above the small villages of Chessell and Shalcombe.
An Aquila Sunderland G-AGJN was lost at Madeira in a landing accident, and another Sunderland G-AGKY was lost at Calshot on the take off for Madeira.
Both accidents happened within a week of each other in January 1953.
Such are the early days of the pioneering of commercial Aviation.
