Leatherman and Swiss army Knives
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So how are the girls gonna break up the bags of ice? I know, they can use the crash axe or the crowbar.
Cancel that, they're gonna be removed too...
On a related note, I'm pleased that all persons entering the cabin of a BA aircraft will now be searched, including BA staff (does not apply in the UK and USA). I'm rather less pleased that this does not apply to baggage loaders entering the holds. It's a good job there are no Bosnian, Yugoslavian, Kosovan, whatever, loaders working for minimum wage at FRA. What? You mean there *are* Bosnian, Yugoslavian, etc loaders working for minimum wage at FRA? B u g g e r , that's screwed that one then.
[ 14 September 2001: Message edited by: charliecossie ]
Cancel that, they're gonna be removed too...
On a related note, I'm pleased that all persons entering the cabin of a BA aircraft will now be searched, including BA staff (does not apply in the UK and USA). I'm rather less pleased that this does not apply to baggage loaders entering the holds. It's a good job there are no Bosnian, Yugoslavian, Kosovan, whatever, loaders working for minimum wage at FRA. What? You mean there *are* Bosnian, Yugoslavian, etc loaders working for minimum wage at FRA? B u g g e r , that's screwed that one then.
[ 14 September 2001: Message edited by: charliecossie ]
Active resistance to hijackers
Until September 11, the implied bargain between hijackers and aircrew was that passenger and aircrew lives would be spared in return for compliance with the hijackers' demands.
This is no longer the case.
Hijackers can be fought. Dozens of motivated passengers and cabin crew can certainly physically overwhelm small numbers of hijackers unless they have smuggled automatic firearms past security and have covered their backs. Even with existing passenger inspection procedures, the small knives the hijackers did succeed in smuggling aboard could at worse cost a very small number of fatalities against a concerted attack. As an earlier post has mentioned, the new risk of losing everybody on board and hundreds or thousands on the ground demands we accept the risk of a few fatalities doing active resistance. Let's not ignore that this kind of hijacker much prefers going out in a blaze of glory rather than rotting away in a life sentence -- active resistance can deter these people.
The safety card in every seatback and cabin briefings must include procedures to resist
hijackers. Without benefit of detailed analysis, I would suggest as a start instructing passengers to immediately pull up their seat cushion and pile on the hijackers. At the beginning the hijackers are very likely surrounded and easy to overcome. Afterwards when passengers and crew are herded to one end, successful resistance is far more difficult. Flight 93 demonstrated that hijackers can be thwarted even at a late stage. Immediate resistance might have saved the passengers.
Cockpit crew are not without resources, but first of all a stronger door seems urgently
called for. Violent maneuvering will cause casualties on anybody in back who is not
strapped in, mostly hijackers; but this and depressurization should be reserved for desperate cases where resistance in the cabin is unsuccessful.
As far as banning knives are concerned, I suspect we might be better off attaching a good knife on every seatback. Whatever weapons a few hijackers could smuggle aboard would be seriously outnumbered.
Until September 11, the implied bargain between hijackers and aircrew was that passenger and aircrew lives would be spared in return for compliance with the hijackers' demands.
This is no longer the case.
Hijackers can be fought. Dozens of motivated passengers and cabin crew can certainly physically overwhelm small numbers of hijackers unless they have smuggled automatic firearms past security and have covered their backs. Even with existing passenger inspection procedures, the small knives the hijackers did succeed in smuggling aboard could at worse cost a very small number of fatalities against a concerted attack. As an earlier post has mentioned, the new risk of losing everybody on board and hundreds or thousands on the ground demands we accept the risk of a few fatalities doing active resistance. Let's not ignore that this kind of hijacker much prefers going out in a blaze of glory rather than rotting away in a life sentence -- active resistance can deter these people.
The safety card in every seatback and cabin briefings must include procedures to resist
hijackers. Without benefit of detailed analysis, I would suggest as a start instructing passengers to immediately pull up their seat cushion and pile on the hijackers. At the beginning the hijackers are very likely surrounded and easy to overcome. Afterwards when passengers and crew are herded to one end, successful resistance is far more difficult. Flight 93 demonstrated that hijackers can be thwarted even at a late stage. Immediate resistance might have saved the passengers.
Cockpit crew are not without resources, but first of all a stronger door seems urgently
called for. Violent maneuvering will cause casualties on anybody in back who is not
strapped in, mostly hijackers; but this and depressurization should be reserved for desperate cases where resistance in the cabin is unsuccessful.
As far as banning knives are concerned, I suspect we might be better off attaching a good knife on every seatback. Whatever weapons a few hijackers could smuggle aboard would be seriously outnumbered.
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These assholes joined the flights via a connecting flight, they did not check in their bags at the curb, so now the authorities are banning curbside check in. They carried their own (legal) knives on board, so now we take away the crews' knives, bottle openers and such, and we ban even plastic knives on meal trays. They overwhelmed the crew and passengers because they had knives and the crew did not, so we take away all possible tools the crew might use to protect themselves. The terrorists had valid ID so we increase the check in procedures for everybody. Those who checked in at the departure airport got there using the shuttle bus, not private cars, so we ban private cars from the airport. I could go on, but you get the picture.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
It seems quite clear to all of us WITHIN the industry, that the amateurs responsible for the checking carry-on baggage have taken a HIGH PROFILE object eg. the Swiss Army knife, and Leatherman, and issued "press releases" to have it APPEAR that they are doing something, and to satisfy the public.
I`m sure that even the HIJACKERS are laughing at these idiotic, pathetic, almost child-like responses to what is a SERIOUS THREAT.
It has been raining here (where I live) for the past couple of days, and I have become aware of how potentially lethal a weapon an umbrella could be, using the steel ribs and spline - and 20 times longer than a pocket knife blade! But are the "security officers" confiscating umbrellas? Of course NOT! They're too busy looking for the subjects of this thread.
It is TIME for OUR (CREW) REPRESENTATIVES - our unions - to become actively and PUBLICALLY involved in implementing some meaningful measures to counter terrorists/hijackers!
As an adjunct for pax and deadheading crew, a seat cushion, and/or a shirt or pair of trousers wrapped around your arm is useful in tackling someone armed with any sort of blade. If necessary, rip the tray table off the seat back or out of the arm stowage, and tackle him/her with that!
[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin M ]
I`m sure that even the HIJACKERS are laughing at these idiotic, pathetic, almost child-like responses to what is a SERIOUS THREAT.
It has been raining here (where I live) for the past couple of days, and I have become aware of how potentially lethal a weapon an umbrella could be, using the steel ribs and spline - and 20 times longer than a pocket knife blade! But are the "security officers" confiscating umbrellas? Of course NOT! They're too busy looking for the subjects of this thread.
It is TIME for OUR (CREW) REPRESENTATIVES - our unions - to become actively and PUBLICALLY involved in implementing some meaningful measures to counter terrorists/hijackers!
As an adjunct for pax and deadheading crew, a seat cushion, and/or a shirt or pair of trousers wrapped around your arm is useful in tackling someone armed with any sort of blade. If necessary, rip the tray table off the seat back or out of the arm stowage, and tackle him/her with that!
[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin M ]
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RatherBeFlying
I agree entirely with your sentiments. May i add with regard to the training and guidance given to flight crews ( which has never been extensive to say the least ), the emphasis in the past regarding Hijack situations has been pacification of the hijackers. This must now change and any unlawful interference must be treated as a potential 'nightmare scenario'.
Training will need to be given to crews and more importantly the authorities will have to mandate such training. I have some ideas but will not discuss these on a public forum.
I agree entirely with your sentiments. May i add with regard to the training and guidance given to flight crews ( which has never been extensive to say the least ), the emphasis in the past regarding Hijack situations has been pacification of the hijackers. This must now change and any unlawful interference must be treated as a potential 'nightmare scenario'.
Training will need to be given to crews and more importantly the authorities will have to mandate such training. I have some ideas but will not discuss these on a public forum.
Zeitgebers, I agree that we don't need to publicise all the details of security training for aircrew, especially where it concerns the tactics taught. That said, we should publicise that the training is through and includes all the typical self-defense dirty tricks.
We must include the pasengers. Three or four mostly female cabin crew (unless very highly trained and fit) against young male terrorist types makes pretty good odds for the bad guys. Involving the passengers turns the tables. That's why I'm advocating hijacker reesistance in the seatback cards and safety briefings.
We must include the pasengers. Three or four mostly female cabin crew (unless very highly trained and fit) against young male terrorist types makes pretty good odds for the bad guys. Involving the passengers turns the tables. That's why I'm advocating hijacker reesistance in the seatback cards and safety briefings.
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In INDIA after the Indian Airlines A300, hijack to Kandahar,security has stopped entry of nail cutters as well.
That was the longest hijack in history, and the hijackers escaped into Afghansistan, as the Taliban gave them shelter.
No amount of security can stop a highly motivated and fuled by religion terrorist.
That was the longest hijack in history, and the hijackers escaped into Afghansistan, as the Taliban gave them shelter.
No amount of security can stop a highly motivated and fuled by religion terrorist.
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Looks like they may have literally used Swiss Army knives:
September 16, 2001
Swiss: Hijacking Suspect Bought Knives
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 11:48 a.m. ET
BERN, Switzerland (AP) -- One of the alleged hijackers suspected in last week's terror attacks on the United States bought two knives in Switzerland, the country's justice ministry said Sunday.
Ministry spokesman Victor Schlumpf said "one of the prime suspects'' had used a credit card to buy two knives. He refused to give details or identify the suspect.
However, the SonntagsBlick newspaper said that Mohammed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi, who allegedly were among the 19 hijackers, spent time in Switzerland during the summer and stayed in a Zurich hotel. It said they purchased pocket knives and cardboard cutters -- the weapons used to commandeer four passenger jetliners on Tuesday.
The two men were both natives of the United Arab Emirates, and lived and studied in the German city of Hamburg.
Swiss authorities have launched a formal investigation in the wake of the attacks to see if any groups of Islamic extremists are based in Switzerland. A number of Islamic groups operate humanitarian operations in the country to raise funds.
Switzerland froze all accounts linked to Afghanistan's ruling Taliban earlier this year as part of U.N. sanctions against the hardline Islamic regime for sheltering Osama bin Laden, the suspected terrorist mastermind who is the prime suspect in last week's attacks. Swiss officials have said less than $600,000 was involved
September 16, 2001
Swiss: Hijacking Suspect Bought Knives
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 11:48 a.m. ET
BERN, Switzerland (AP) -- One of the alleged hijackers suspected in last week's terror attacks on the United States bought two knives in Switzerland, the country's justice ministry said Sunday.
Ministry spokesman Victor Schlumpf said "one of the prime suspects'' had used a credit card to buy two knives. He refused to give details or identify the suspect.
However, the SonntagsBlick newspaper said that Mohammed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi, who allegedly were among the 19 hijackers, spent time in Switzerland during the summer and stayed in a Zurich hotel. It said they purchased pocket knives and cardboard cutters -- the weapons used to commandeer four passenger jetliners on Tuesday.
The two men were both natives of the United Arab Emirates, and lived and studied in the German city of Hamburg.
Swiss authorities have launched a formal investigation in the wake of the attacks to see if any groups of Islamic extremists are based in Switzerland. A number of Islamic groups operate humanitarian operations in the country to raise funds.
Switzerland froze all accounts linked to Afghanistan's ruling Taliban earlier this year as part of U.N. sanctions against the hardline Islamic regime for sheltering Osama bin Laden, the suspected terrorist mastermind who is the prime suspect in last week's attacks. Swiss officials have said less than $600,000 was involved
Freight God
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And they always teach us in the good old military training over here that to combat the enemy you're supposed to use the rifle, the bajonet, the spade (if you happen to have one), the pistol, the hand grenade etc. etc. etc. BUT never the standard swiss army soldier's knife, as a) it's your eating knife b) it's your tool kit c) it's your weapon cleaning kit support d) it's your first aid scalpel e) it's your sewing kit knife and scisors f) it's your box opening tool g) it's your ammunition crate opener etc. etc. etc.
BUT it's NOT your weapon. Maybe we should inform the passengers in the safety instructions that Swiss Army Knives are to be regarded as tools, not weapons and that you are free to use your seat cushion as shield and to attack the hijacker full force.
So, warning to all hijackers: never try to hijack a Swiss airplane of an airplane going to or coming from Switzerland with a knife. Most passengers would not take you serious! And I think we should teach all passengers to think alike.
BUT it's NOT your weapon. Maybe we should inform the passengers in the safety instructions that Swiss Army Knives are to be regarded as tools, not weapons and that you are free to use your seat cushion as shield and to attack the hijacker full force.
So, warning to all hijackers: never try to hijack a Swiss airplane of an airplane going to or coming from Switzerland with a knife. Most passengers would not take you serious! And I think we should teach all passengers to think alike.
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Over the passed days I have been asked twice to return to check-in for a flight on which I was operating to ckeck-in my leatherman as a security item. I was not allowed to take it with me in my flight bag.
No problem with that, only took about 10 minutes of hassle. The fun bit is ofcourse that then 20 minutes later the dispatcher shows up with a big envelope for the captain containing?...........My leatherman!
No problem with that, only took about 10 minutes of hassle. The fun bit is ofcourse that then 20 minutes later the dispatcher shows up with a big envelope for the captain containing?...........My leatherman!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
The tiny minds that remove Leathermans/Swiss Army knives from the operating cockpit crew only further prove that these are the WRONG people for the job.
Does the Captain of a flight really need ANYTHING at all to "hijack" his flight?
I know a co-pilot who regularly puts the incorrect info into the FMC (flight management computer) and in conjunction with the auto pilot has ALMOST succeeded in "diverting" several flights!
Does the Captain of a flight really need ANYTHING at all to "hijack" his flight?
I know a co-pilot who regularly puts the incorrect info into the FMC (flight management computer)
and in conjunction with the auto pilot has ALMOST succeeded in "diverting" several flights!
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If you really wanted to, you could sharpen up the edges of a 50p coin.
Are we to confiscate EVERY single piece of metal that both pax and crew are likely to possess
Business card holders?
Ballpoint pens?
Ladies fingernails??????
Utter madness. Workable measures, please! Not bright ideas from the pen-pushers and spin-doctors, that will only serve to inconvenience everybody but provide no added protection in-flight. As has already been said, why remove all of the combative tools available to help suppress an attempted hijack?
No doubt that all persons who head forward towards the cockpit but do not make the immediate left turn into the bogs will now be instantly jumped-on by pax and cabin staff alike.
One further snippet for your delectation..... have travelled for many years with both Swiss Army type and Leatherman with no problem. However, a set of 3x 22g nickel-tungsten playing-darts (in smart leather case and stored in my flight bag) were, they said, deemed to be an offensive weapon.
They were placed in a 2' x 1' x 6" cardboard box, placed in the hold and were finally collected from the luggage carousel after landing.
Fly me to Cuba.... or I will attempt to score 180. Made ME feel a whole lot safer
Are we to confiscate EVERY single piece of metal that both pax and crew are likely to possess
Business card holders?
Ballpoint pens?
Ladies fingernails??????
Utter madness. Workable measures, please! Not bright ideas from the pen-pushers and spin-doctors, that will only serve to inconvenience everybody but provide no added protection in-flight. As has already been said, why remove all of the combative tools available to help suppress an attempted hijack?
No doubt that all persons who head forward towards the cockpit but do not make the immediate left turn into the bogs will now be instantly jumped-on by pax and cabin staff alike.
One further snippet for your delectation..... have travelled for many years with both Swiss Army type and Leatherman with no problem. However, a set of 3x 22g nickel-tungsten playing-darts (in smart leather case and stored in my flight bag) were, they said, deemed to be an offensive weapon.
They were placed in a 2' x 1' x 6" cardboard box, placed in the hold and were finally collected from the luggage carousel after landing.
Fly me to Cuba.... or I will attempt to score 180. Made ME feel a whole lot safer
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Can anybody beat this? Before my co-pilot met me in operations security had confiscated the slip-on razor blade heads of his safety razor. The tiny little plastic things with a sliver of steel.
You do not have to be mad to work here but it helps!!!
You do not have to be mad to work here but it helps!!!
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This is all getting too silly too quickly folks. The authorities have to realise we're working on a spectrum of safety here. At one extreme end (the dangerous end) there would be no security measures at all. At the other extreme end, we simply remove the wings from every aircraft..then they won't ever crash or be hijacked.
So the authorities have to find a sensible compromise somewhere in the "middle". Ok..so now's the time to re-define where the middle bit actually is, but at the end of the day, we will only ever keep aircraft flying if we accept that there has to be a compromise. Licensed aircrew being banned from carrying innocent tools such as swiss army knives, leatherman's & maglites means that somebody's lost the plot. I personally have lost count of the number of times I've had to use my swiss army knife to carry out an in-flight repair of a crackly headset, or tighten a lose knob somewhere. there was one occasion when I had a double radio failure in flight, and the army knife got both radios working again.
As for maglites..emmm..isn't it a legal requirement that we carry a torch when night flying?
The fact that any pilot complete with ID pass manages to get through security to go to work means that we are about to fly a potentially lethal missile, so what's the problem if we carry a few other bits & pieces? I realise the concern about terrorists impersonating pilots, but even if we position as passengers; the fact that we have an electrocally swiped ID pass is more proof of genuinity than that carried by armed police officers. And the technology exist for us to provide the security search staff with additional info like a PIN number.
What else is going to be banned? Pepper from the catering galley? Hairsprays and perfume sprays used by the cabin crew? In fact, I'd better remove my wedding ring in case I use it as a knuckle-duster. And my fingernails are a bit long and sharp. In fact, let's ban metal pens and use soft pastels to write with.We are responsible people in charge of airliners and people's lives. The authorities must treat us as such. Any changes required should take place in the screening process, and not restrict us from going about our business. [Gravity is a myth...the Earth sucks]
So the authorities have to find a sensible compromise somewhere in the "middle". Ok..so now's the time to re-define where the middle bit actually is, but at the end of the day, we will only ever keep aircraft flying if we accept that there has to be a compromise. Licensed aircrew being banned from carrying innocent tools such as swiss army knives, leatherman's & maglites means that somebody's lost the plot. I personally have lost count of the number of times I've had to use my swiss army knife to carry out an in-flight repair of a crackly headset, or tighten a lose knob somewhere. there was one occasion when I had a double radio failure in flight, and the army knife got both radios working again.
As for maglites..emmm..isn't it a legal requirement that we carry a torch when night flying?
The fact that any pilot complete with ID pass manages to get through security to go to work means that we are about to fly a potentially lethal missile, so what's the problem if we carry a few other bits & pieces? I realise the concern about terrorists impersonating pilots, but even if we position as passengers; the fact that we have an electrocally swiped ID pass is more proof of genuinity than that carried by armed police officers. And the technology exist for us to provide the security search staff with additional info like a PIN number.
What else is going to be banned? Pepper from the catering galley? Hairsprays and perfume sprays used by the cabin crew? In fact, I'd better remove my wedding ring in case I use it as a knuckle-duster. And my fingernails are a bit long and sharp. In fact, let's ban metal pens and use soft pastels to write with.We are responsible people in charge of airliners and people's lives. The authorities must treat us as such. Any changes required should take place in the screening process, and not restrict us from going about our business. [Gravity is a myth...the Earth sucks]
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So I took my toolkit out of my Flight Bag were it's been for the last 20 Years and has saved the day on numerous occasions (and it has the corkscrew for those unscheduled night stops...)
and was stopped by security to remove my nail file and a plastic (10cent) razor from my night stop kit. and yes I was off to drive my big jet with loads of fuel on it and at least 16 lethal weapons including an enormous axe on the flight deck.
Have the powers that be concidered how lethal a car key could be? I suggest that with immediate effect they must all be removed and looked after by security personal until the pax returns.
I also think the ladies will now have to lose all those nice pierced earings etc (could be fun with the places that some of our pax have bits in.)
Its a complete farce.
and was stopped by security to remove my nail file and a plastic (10cent) razor from my night stop kit. and yes I was off to drive my big jet with loads of fuel on it and at least 16 lethal weapons including an enormous axe on the flight deck.
Have the powers that be concidered how lethal a car key could be? I suggest that with immediate effect they must all be removed and looked after by security personal until the pax returns.
I also think the ladies will now have to lose all those nice pierced earings etc (could be fun with the places that some of our pax have bits in.)
Its a complete farce.
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There seem to be three elements here:
a] Fanatics
b] Weapons
c] Access to the Flight Deck
We can never stop [a]
Many things can be used as [b]
Unless we install PortaLoos and a caterer in the Flightdeck we can never prevent [c]
Therefore we have a risk. A quantifiable risk which we, the travelling public, have to accept.
On occasion things will go badly wrong but as long as we all do our utmost to reduce the effect of [a], [b] and [c] then we will have moved forward.
No room for knee-jerks here.
I can't actually imagine life without a Leatherman now that I've used one for nigh on ten years.
Edited for p1ss poor spelling!
[ 20 September 2001: Message edited by: Bystander ]
a] Fanatics
b] Weapons
c] Access to the Flight Deck
We can never stop [a]
Many things can be used as [b]
Unless we install PortaLoos and a caterer in the Flightdeck we can never prevent [c]
Therefore we have a risk. A quantifiable risk which we, the travelling public, have to accept.
On occasion things will go badly wrong but as long as we all do our utmost to reduce the effect of [a], [b] and [c] then we will have moved forward.
No room for knee-jerks here.
I can't actually imagine life without a Leatherman now that I've used one for nigh on ten years.
Edited for p1ss poor spelling!
[ 20 September 2001: Message edited by: Bystander ]
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Spoke to a couple of "aviation advisers" to my local politicians recently. Seems they have already decided what is best for us - not much chance of logic intervening. Actually had to tell one individual about the crash axe, he was very surprised. Suppose they will have that removed from our aircraft next as a safety precaution!
Their answer is strong cockpit doors and sky marshals. Rumour is the sky marshal will get paid more than most co-pilots. Wonder if I can dual qualify? Nah, wouldn't want to trust the pilot.
Their answer is strong cockpit doors and sky marshals. Rumour is the sky marshal will get paid more than most co-pilots. Wonder if I can dual qualify? Nah, wouldn't want to trust the pilot.
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Of course, one of the most effective weapons in trained hands is a rolled up copy of the Telegraph. (seriously)
Could it be the end for carry on newsprint?
"Don't come near me. I have a black belt in origami and I'm not scared to use this"
Could it be the end for carry on newsprint?
"Don't come near me. I have a black belt in origami and I'm not scared to use this"
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Guys, Gals,
All fairly logical and good points. That are going to get the Pilots, F/A's and PAX's nowhere. The a) b) c) logic is good - but you are all stalled and not getting out of a thinking rut.
Somebody said - think laterally - RIGHT. But when we do the excercises most of us can only go 2 degrees left or right.
Any of you really want to move this forwards - mail me - its not something that should be on-line at all. It will need some dedication on your part - perhaps many hours - might I humbly suggest that dedication is better than dead.
Just thing this one thru - 80 to 90% of all male massengers have at least one, often up to three deadly weapons that nobody in airport security has ever questioned in my almost 50 years in the air (no not contiguous hours).
5 to 10 people from different locations and training/jobs with 10 to 50 hours to invest each and that team can get further with a solution than all the Swiss Army Knives and Leatherman stealing Bureaucrats around the world.
---------------
if at first you don't succeed - cheat ?
[ 21 September 2001: Message edited by: gofer ]
All fairly logical and good points. That are going to get the Pilots, F/A's and PAX's nowhere. The a) b) c) logic is good - but you are all stalled and not getting out of a thinking rut.
Somebody said - think laterally - RIGHT. But when we do the excercises most of us can only go 2 degrees left or right.
Any of you really want to move this forwards - mail me - its not something that should be on-line at all. It will need some dedication on your part - perhaps many hours - might I humbly suggest that dedication is better than dead.
Just thing this one thru - 80 to 90% of all male massengers have at least one, often up to three deadly weapons that nobody in airport security has ever questioned in my almost 50 years in the air (no not contiguous hours).
5 to 10 people from different locations and training/jobs with 10 to 50 hours to invest each and that team can get further with a solution than all the Swiss Army Knives and Leatherman stealing Bureaucrats around the world.
---------------
if at first you don't succeed - cheat ?
[ 21 September 2001: Message edited by: gofer ]