GB Pilots to join BA?
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Rider of the purple sage- wow!- calm down!
You shouldnt be worried because from my limited knowledge of the BA seniority system youll never be senior enough to move off the turboprop!
You adopt a strange attitude for a base trainer!
You shouldnt be worried because from my limited knowledge of the BA seniority system youll never be senior enough to move off the turboprop!
You adopt a strange attitude for a base trainer!
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EXCELLENT posting BigBrutha!
I was just sharpening up my stick to give you BA boys another good prodding ....but you elevated this debate onto a higher intellectual level...way beyond me!
Face it guys..... you belong to a byegone era. You've had your day. No one loves you anymore but yourselves so stop acting like a geriatric prima donna who thinks that her adoring fans still owe her a living long after her looks and voice have gone!
Keep the personal abuse and insults coming..... if it makes you feel better!
I was just sharpening up my stick to give you BA boys another good prodding ....but you elevated this debate onto a higher intellectual level...way beyond me!
Face it guys..... you belong to a byegone era. You've had your day. No one loves you anymore but yourselves so stop acting like a geriatric prima donna who thinks that her adoring fans still owe her a living long after her looks and voice have gone!
Keep the personal abuse and insults coming..... if it makes you feel better!
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I think this thread has degenerated into "I wouldn't take a job with BA if you offered it with a bargepole blah blah" (or words to that effect). I think discussion on this topic is counterproductive! May I suggest no more AGAIN!
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So what is the answer, then? Do the BA pilots and/or management want to see the end of franchise pilots and why? Do they want an end to franchise flying on nice comfortable jets only or all the way down to the Islander and Twin Otter? If there is a cut-off, what's the logic behind that? Do they genuinely think that we'd all love to fly for BA and the only reason we don't is because we 'failed' the selection procedure? Do they realise how many good pilots were unsuccessful on several occasions before getting in? Do they know of the sh!te pilots who have joined - I know of one who joined just as he was sacked from his previous job (a franchise) for incompetence - and he's now a trainer!
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BigBrutha,
You clearly have no idea of the training standards within the franchisees.
GB began with with virtually all senior management positions filled by people who were seconded from BA, or recently retired from BA.
From Day 1, GB have used BA SOP's, manuals & training standards, down to identical checks in the simulator.
Line operations are regularly audited by the appropriate BA department, receiving high levels of praise.
GB is a small, efficient company that does not have the resources to waste putting unsuitable people through courses, unlike the BA "sausage factory."
If GB's standards are as low as you suggest, what does that say about BA's?
In any case, this is not about GB pilots wanting to be BA pilots, it is about GB as a company deciding it's own future.
Incidentally, I think you have just alienated your 15,000 cabin crew - do BA include CRM courses in all that fine training?
You clearly have no idea of the training standards within the franchisees.
GB began with with virtually all senior management positions filled by people who were seconded from BA, or recently retired from BA.
From Day 1, GB have used BA SOP's, manuals & training standards, down to identical checks in the simulator.
Line operations are regularly audited by the appropriate BA department, receiving high levels of praise.
GB is a small, efficient company that does not have the resources to waste putting unsuitable people through courses, unlike the BA "sausage factory."
If GB's standards are as low as you suggest, what does that say about BA's?
In any case, this is not about GB pilots wanting to be BA pilots, it is about GB as a company deciding it's own future.
Incidentally, I think you have just alienated your 15,000 cabin crew - do BA include CRM courses in all that fine training?
Last edited by Miss Inform; 28th Aug 2002 at 18:05.
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from a CitiExpress perspective, the sheer arrogance and idiocy of BA is a bit difficult to take. Fortunately we have a CC who sees through them, as do GB, and I suggest we stick together, and refuse to accept their dictatorial short sighted selfish stupidity. Dinosaurs - I like that!Eventually, their Atlantic Baron attitude will probably split the old BOAC thing off, and we can then all clean up actually making money in Europe and the Regions. Will be interesting to watch the BACC scramble for seniority then. Wow, be interesting also to turn them down for Regional jet jobs, lol.
Bunch of prats!!!
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JUMBODRIVER -- YEAH, YOU!!!
I've seen the proposed scope, and it is a one way stitchup.Us at BACE will be taken to the cleaners; don't think it will happen without a fight.
Don't know why I'm even writing this, I've joined the future, and it is coloured ORANGE!
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It gets so frustrating when any thread concerning BA degenerates into a slanging match (both corners as bad as each other). To put the record straight about differing skill levels/ability, BA pilots are generally no better nor worse than any other UK airline's pilots.
I now work for BA after flying for a major (and one of the most respected) charter airlines. I am also ex-RAF and QFI so I should have an idea!
Let's keep to the original thread and discuss the various implications from both sides and cut out the pettiness.
I now work for BA after flying for a major (and one of the most respected) charter airlines. I am also ex-RAF and QFI so I should have an idea!
Let's keep to the original thread and discuss the various implications from both sides and cut out the pettiness.
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Well said Bclam.
I do not however apologise for my remarks, as they address the all too common attitude of frequently inept BA pilots incapable of any rational self-analysis. I do however accept that type of remark is unhelpful, and I would not wish to be thought of as such, however it is difficult not to point out drivel wherever one encounters it!
I was ex-Air Force too, not a QFI, but a QWI and TWI, which I would not have mentioned before you, but which I agree with you gives one a certain platform to judge relative ability from.
BACEX is a good Company, it was significantly better run before the advent of BA.
I do not however apologise for my remarks, as they address the all too common attitude of frequently inept BA pilots incapable of any rational self-analysis. I do however accept that type of remark is unhelpful, and I would not wish to be thought of as such, however it is difficult not to point out drivel wherever one encounters it!
I was ex-Air Force too, not a QFI, but a QWI and TWI, which I would not have mentioned before you, but which I agree with you gives one a certain platform to judge relative ability from.
BACEX is a good Company, it was significantly better run before the advent of BA.
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nearly nigel...how apt your handle..
if you think that SCOPE will disadvantage you,you are quite frankly, deluding yourself.
Perhaps you want to spend the rest of your days flying E-145 out of manchester-there is nothing wrong with that-but given the chance to access mainline BA, and all it has to offer,I know what I would choose.and your getting it through the back door.
but then again,you say you've turned orange.you can't quite make up your mind can you!
jumbo
if you think that SCOPE will disadvantage you,you are quite frankly, deluding yourself.
Perhaps you want to spend the rest of your days flying E-145 out of manchester-there is nothing wrong with that-but given the chance to access mainline BA, and all it has to offer,I know what I would choose.and your getting it through the back door.
but then again,you say you've turned orange.you can't quite make up your mind can you!
jumbo
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Now who would've thought it? You of all people, Mr Purple Sage, being an ex-RAF QWI/TWI in posession of "a certain platform to judge relative ability from".
What has the RAF got to do with anything?
You are a civilian pilot now and like any good ex-forces pilot you should know that the two roles are mutually exclusive apart from the laws of aerodynamics and lack of reheat (Concorde excluded).
What on earth was your first post about?
We are, with the occasionally divergent posting, trying to prove that the pilots of GB Airways and British Airways are doing the same job to the same S.O.P. We are being paid the same salary and on the whole, work as hard as each other, albeit on different rostering systems. We fly the same aircraft and use the same simulators. There is cost saving written all OVER this. Forget the Waterside brigade. Forget the C/C (Cabin Crew). GB and BA working 'togevver'?
Please accept that without such solidarity from our CC's we will played off against each other quicker than you, MR BASE TRAINING ex-QWI, can bid for a LHR command.
Not all Cadet entry pilots are Officer material I agree, but not all ex-QWI's are Base trainer material, are they?
Off to shine my shoes, in case I run into you.
What has the RAF got to do with anything?
You are a civilian pilot now and like any good ex-forces pilot you should know that the two roles are mutually exclusive apart from the laws of aerodynamics and lack of reheat (Concorde excluded).
What on earth was your first post about?
We are, with the occasionally divergent posting, trying to prove that the pilots of GB Airways and British Airways are doing the same job to the same S.O.P. We are being paid the same salary and on the whole, work as hard as each other, albeit on different rostering systems. We fly the same aircraft and use the same simulators. There is cost saving written all OVER this. Forget the Waterside brigade. Forget the C/C (Cabin Crew). GB and BA working 'togevver'?
Please accept that without such solidarity from our CC's we will played off against each other quicker than you, MR BASE TRAINING ex-QWI, can bid for a LHR command.
Not all Cadet entry pilots are Officer material I agree, but not all ex-QWI's are Base trainer material, are they?
Off to shine my shoes, in case I run into you.
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The scope deal is not intended to force GB to be absorbed into BA, and this debate is not about who's the better pilots or whose Dad is bigger. The deal is to set up access to GB work for BA pilots and vice versa. NSF is correct that GB represent a commercial advantage for BA, the problem is that BA management are using them to create a threat to BA pilots. GB makes money because it is a lean operation, BA lose money because they have too many hangers-on. Neither companys fortune is determined to any significant extent by flight crew pay rates. The problem is that BA wish to palm off marginal routes (which are marginal through no fault of the flight crew) to GB in order to create revenue. A sensible idea from a managers point of view, but effectively outsourcing BA pilots work. GB may wish to grow to 19 Airbusses, but how many of those routes will come from BA, and how many BA flight crew jobs does that represent?
The ideal solution would be to gradually eliminate most of Waterside and replace it with GBs structure, but the managers will never buy that. So, the scope deal aims to ensure that if we need to use the lower overheads of a franchise operation to make a route profitable then it can be done without the loss of BA pilot jobs, perhaps through some sort of combined workforce. What I think is certain is that GB crews would retain the ability to stay on their aircraft, fly their routes, possibly benefit from a pay rise (if mainline rates are higher) and have access (if they wanted it) to opportunities on other BA fleets. BA pilots get the opportunity to continue to fly routes that were viable before the Waterworld wasters ruined them.
BTW Miss Inform your last but one post made my point exactly. GB are not operating by the 'rules' of franchising, which is precisely why the scope issue has risen to the fore.
The ideal solution would be to gradually eliminate most of Waterside and replace it with GBs structure, but the managers will never buy that. So, the scope deal aims to ensure that if we need to use the lower overheads of a franchise operation to make a route profitable then it can be done without the loss of BA pilot jobs, perhaps through some sort of combined workforce. What I think is certain is that GB crews would retain the ability to stay on their aircraft, fly their routes, possibly benefit from a pay rise (if mainline rates are higher) and have access (if they wanted it) to opportunities on other BA fleets. BA pilots get the opportunity to continue to fly routes that were viable before the Waterworld wasters ruined them.
BTW Miss Inform your last but one post made my point exactly. GB are not operating by the 'rules' of franchising, which is precisely why the scope issue has risen to the fore.
I for one have no wish to join a bankrupt airline at the arse end
of the seniority list with or without the selection procedure.
The owner of GB should contact his pal SIR COLIN and thrash out a deal with the union.
AT THE END OF THE DAY JOB SECURITY IS FAR HIGHER AT GB.
I know what's side my breads buttered.
of the seniority list with or without the selection procedure.
The owner of GB should contact his pal SIR COLIN and thrash out a deal with the union.
AT THE END OF THE DAY JOB SECURITY IS FAR HIGHER AT GB.
I know what's side my breads buttered.
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Mr Hand Solo
So if, for instance I were an FO at GB looking at a command within the next year, by joining this BA link up I would have a possible pay rise and access to all that mainline has to offer (from the bottom of the seniority list - what would that be?). In return I would see an extra x years in the RHS, have another cr@ppy money-purchase pension and be as happy as the rest of you. What's my incentive, exactly?? Or doesn't it matter?
So if, for instance I were an FO at GB looking at a command within the next year, by joining this BA link up I would have a possible pay rise and access to all that mainline has to offer (from the bottom of the seniority list - what would that be?). In return I would see an extra x years in the RHS, have another cr@ppy money-purchase pension and be as happy as the rest of you. What's my incentive, exactly?? Or doesn't it matter?
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This would appear to make the imposition of scope an even bigger stitch up for BACX than before.
Scope was designed to to keep us regional pondlife from flying anything that we are obviously not capable of doing, such as flying anything over 70 seats (which some of us who've had extensive training do anyway - only the brightest mind you :o - on 146's).
Spot the anomoly. BA has several franchises who fly the same types as BA such as GB. Ahhhhh. So what to do? I know. Let's incorporate them into mainline and try and protect our work.
OK, from a BACX perspective let's run over some old ground. As BACX we are now a BA subsidiary not a franchise. We fly on routes (in the main) that BA mainline can't turn a profit on using the equipment it flies with the attendant BA overheads. Ours are lower. Also we fly aircraft which are cheaper to run (in the main). TP's and the Bendy jet, which horrendous as it may be to fly in, keeps a route open for said pax to fly on. We also now pick up work on RJ's (we already operate 146's) and the BAR routes which displaces those mainline pilots flying the heavier metal already. Now we have BA mainline pilots who don't wish to move and they are being given a secondment agreement where they are paid BACX rates and allowances plus a top up to make up for pay and allowances being left behind in BA. Now it'd be interesting to see what percentage of a BACX jet captain's salary that would be extra per annum. If it were any less than 15% I'd be suprised.
Mainline pilots are trying to have their cake and eat it. It isn't our fault that we don't carry, in the regions, the cost of waterside. The BA mainline posters accuse the franchises of cherry picking. Well from my perspective (not a franchise pilot and not one of the BA family if previous posts are to be judged) the biggest cherry pickers are the BA pilots themselves- routes, types the lot.
I joined a regional airline for the lifestyle. Not for me the glamour of international air travel. I'm here because I like the base and the flying. You can poke the shiny BA long or short haul where it's brown and smelly.
Goodbye.
Scope was designed to to keep us regional pondlife from flying anything that we are obviously not capable of doing, such as flying anything over 70 seats (which some of us who've had extensive training do anyway - only the brightest mind you :o - on 146's).
Spot the anomoly. BA has several franchises who fly the same types as BA such as GB. Ahhhhh. So what to do? I know. Let's incorporate them into mainline and try and protect our work.
OK, from a BACX perspective let's run over some old ground. As BACX we are now a BA subsidiary not a franchise. We fly on routes (in the main) that BA mainline can't turn a profit on using the equipment it flies with the attendant BA overheads. Ours are lower. Also we fly aircraft which are cheaper to run (in the main). TP's and the Bendy jet, which horrendous as it may be to fly in, keeps a route open for said pax to fly on. We also now pick up work on RJ's (we already operate 146's) and the BAR routes which displaces those mainline pilots flying the heavier metal already. Now we have BA mainline pilots who don't wish to move and they are being given a secondment agreement where they are paid BACX rates and allowances plus a top up to make up for pay and allowances being left behind in BA. Now it'd be interesting to see what percentage of a BACX jet captain's salary that would be extra per annum. If it were any less than 15% I'd be suprised.
Mainline pilots are trying to have their cake and eat it. It isn't our fault that we don't carry, in the regions, the cost of waterside. The BA mainline posters accuse the franchises of cherry picking. Well from my perspective (not a franchise pilot and not one of the BA family if previous posts are to be judged) the biggest cherry pickers are the BA pilots themselves- routes, types the lot.
I joined a regional airline for the lifestyle. Not for me the glamour of international air travel. I'm here because I like the base and the flying. You can poke the shiny BA long or short haul where it's brown and smelly.
Goodbye.
Last edited by climbs like a dog; 29th Aug 2002 at 10:27.
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Climbs Like A Dog.........
I can tell you that the amount extra per month that a seconded BA Mainline captain on the RJ will be paid is no less than £1000 (ONE THOUSAND POUNDS) per month plus of course retaining all his BA mainline benefits and a preferential bid (allegedly) with his final salary scheme, first class travel etc.....
How do I know this?
I shared a taxi with such a secondee who was crowing with delight that he'd be better off than he was before and laughing all the way to the bank.
Need I say any more?
I can tell you that the amount extra per month that a seconded BA Mainline captain on the RJ will be paid is no less than £1000 (ONE THOUSAND POUNDS) per month plus of course retaining all his BA mainline benefits and a preferential bid (allegedly) with his final salary scheme, first class travel etc.....
How do I know this?
I shared a taxi with such a secondee who was crowing with delight that he'd be better off than he was before and laughing all the way to the bank.
Need I say any more?
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A point, subtly made in recent posts, is that many pilots are quite happy with life outside of BA, however hard this may be for some to believe! Not everybody thinks that it is a great favour to be forced into the BA fold.
In fact, it would seem that many non-BA pilots see any such link-up as ultimately detrimental to their careers & lifestyles.
In an attempt to win over the "wobblers" at GB, I propose that the GB pilots join at the TOP of the BA seniority list, or the BA pilots join at the BOTTOM of the GB list!
In fact, it would seem that many non-BA pilots see any such link-up as ultimately detrimental to their careers & lifestyles.
In an attempt to win over the "wobblers" at GB, I propose that the GB pilots join at the TOP of the BA seniority list, or the BA pilots join at the BOTTOM of the GB list!
Last edited by Miss Inform; 29th Aug 2002 at 13:17.
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A THOUSAND AN EFFING MONTH!!!!!!
What!!??
That should lead to an intriguing Flight Deck Relationship; I would not be too happy with that at all.
Will the Nigels' vast ability include operating from the RHS I wonder? Or, does that mean that standby call outs and two Captains rostered together will not only show a BACX Captain always in the RHS as well as losing out on 1000 smackers per month?
I have to congratulate Tinytim, Climbs like a woofer and RPS etc.
The most accurate point made on this thread is the reference to the BA guys being the worst offenders at the cherrypicking. I think the management may well find (as they are already finding with the BAR cabin crew, god love them), that mixing two sets of people on such different Ts and Cs is not a very efficient idea.
Mis Inform, absolutely. It has long been interesting to note that most BA pilots just cannot believe there are a lot of us who have never wanted to be in BA, and don't like it now we're here. It's easy to say "well leave", but why should I do that and lose my pension rights?
Answers on a small postcard please. to the Manchester base.
That should lead to an intriguing Flight Deck Relationship; I would not be too happy with that at all.
Will the Nigels' vast ability include operating from the RHS I wonder? Or, does that mean that standby call outs and two Captains rostered together will not only show a BACX Captain always in the RHS as well as losing out on 1000 smackers per month?
I have to congratulate Tinytim, Climbs like a woofer and RPS etc.
The most accurate point made on this thread is the reference to the BA guys being the worst offenders at the cherrypicking. I think the management may well find (as they are already finding with the BAR cabin crew, god love them), that mixing two sets of people on such different Ts and Cs is not a very efficient idea.
Mis Inform, absolutely. It has long been interesting to note that most BA pilots just cannot believe there are a lot of us who have never wanted to be in BA, and don't like it now we're here. It's easy to say "well leave", but why should I do that and lose my pension rights?
Answers on a small postcard please. to the Manchester base.
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B Clam/Rider
Well hooey hoo, you are ex-RAF! What on earth has that to do with being so all wonderful as to judge civilian airlines???? Sounds like you are the typical prats BA love to have! You love yourselves don't you?
All the BA retirees who work for GB now all comment about the exceptional standards within GB. Our training standards are second to none and the airline was launched with a BA Pilot at the helm. Since then it has grown from strength to strength.
Who wants to be involved with BA? Crappy pay, pension, low morale etc. You are not the be all and end all of aviation as you so arrogantly display.
Passengers hate flying with you, and as for the so called recently published "117" complaints that BA allegedly received about their attrocious service services last year, I say that is a load of B****cks! Get real, passengers complain every day, dozens of times a day. Multiply that by 100!
BA staff are in tears every day having to put up with cr**p management and no resources to carry out their tasks. Nearly all are looking for jobs elsewhere.
So there you go all you prima donas. Leave GB alone. Anything you have touched in the past has turned to a can of worms. We make money and are good at it. Passengers love flying with us and our staff are content.
We are quite happy at GB thank you very much, so leave orff!
Well hooey hoo, you are ex-RAF! What on earth has that to do with being so all wonderful as to judge civilian airlines???? Sounds like you are the typical prats BA love to have! You love yourselves don't you?
All the BA retirees who work for GB now all comment about the exceptional standards within GB. Our training standards are second to none and the airline was launched with a BA Pilot at the helm. Since then it has grown from strength to strength.
Who wants to be involved with BA? Crappy pay, pension, low morale etc. You are not the be all and end all of aviation as you so arrogantly display.
Passengers hate flying with you, and as for the so called recently published "117" complaints that BA allegedly received about their attrocious service services last year, I say that is a load of B****cks! Get real, passengers complain every day, dozens of times a day. Multiply that by 100!
BA staff are in tears every day having to put up with cr**p management and no resources to carry out their tasks. Nearly all are looking for jobs elsewhere.
So there you go all you prima donas. Leave GB alone. Anything you have touched in the past has turned to a can of worms. We make money and are good at it. Passengers love flying with us and our staff are content.
We are quite happy at GB thank you very much, so leave orff!
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HoleyMoley - it depends where your command is coming from. If its a command created by retirement/natural wastage within GB then I would think you would still get it under the terms of the scope deal, and rightly so. If you anticipate a command based on new aircraft deliveries, aircraft which are intended to be utilised on new ex-BA routes, then thats a different question because without a scope deal to give you access to these routes you won't be getting them, ergo no requirement for the new aircraft. I'd still say having access to a BA seniority number is a bonus, even if you stay in exclusively within GB operations. After all, who's to say that you won't fancy a change in a x years time? Nobodys going to force you to join a mainline fleet, but if the options available it doesn't hurt you to keep it open. Likewise if the option of mainline pay is available and it turns out to be better than GBs nobody will force you to take the pay rise.
Climbs like a dog - you accuse BA pilots of being cherry pickers. Well rightly so, after all it is our work. BA wanted rid of the RJ from Gatwick and wanted mainline pilots out of the regions. As a professional body we disagree and had the balls to stand up to our management. The price of our compliance with BA is a pay neutral deal for BA pilots who wish to stay in the regions. If BA think that price is too high, they can always walk away and keep the RJs at Gatwick. They have chosen not to do it, so obviously they think the deal is worth it. Your problem is? You seem to revel in the fact that you will be paid less than a BA captain for flying the same aircraft. That could only happen in Britain! Its worth remembering that there is always someone willing to do it cheaper, and they could just as easily give your new RJs away to someone else. You say you joined a regional airline because you like the base and the flying. Did it ever occur to you that there most BAR pilots are in the regions for the exact same reason?
Climbs like a dog - you accuse BA pilots of being cherry pickers. Well rightly so, after all it is our work. BA wanted rid of the RJ from Gatwick and wanted mainline pilots out of the regions. As a professional body we disagree and had the balls to stand up to our management. The price of our compliance with BA is a pay neutral deal for BA pilots who wish to stay in the regions. If BA think that price is too high, they can always walk away and keep the RJs at Gatwick. They have chosen not to do it, so obviously they think the deal is worth it. Your problem is? You seem to revel in the fact that you will be paid less than a BA captain for flying the same aircraft. That could only happen in Britain! Its worth remembering that there is always someone willing to do it cheaper, and they could just as easily give your new RJs away to someone else. You say you joined a regional airline because you like the base and the flying. Did it ever occur to you that there most BAR pilots are in the regions for the exact same reason?