Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

China Eastern 737-800 MU5735 accident March 2022

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

China Eastern 737-800 MU5735 accident March 2022

Old 1st May 2022, 16:57
  #481 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by BuzzBox View Post
I think there are two major reasons. First, there simply isn't enough bandwidth available using 'traditional' systems such as VHF datalink and SATCOM. CVRs and FDRs generate a huge volume of data and when you multiply that by the large number of aircraft that might be airborne in the same area at the same time, the available bandwidth isn't sufficient to reliably support data streaming. Second, is cost. Data streaming is expensive and nobody's been able to justify the extra cost on safety grounds. That said, technology is constantly changing and there will no doubt come a time when streaming of CVR and FDR becomes feasible. Mind you, international regulatory change normally take years so it will no doubt be a long time before data streaming becomes the 'norm'.
I'm not an expert on satellite communications but would be interested to hear from anyone that is. Do the SATCOM packages installed on civilian aircraft require the antenna to be aligned with an appropriate satellite? If so, it is likely that any uplink is going to be terminated at the point where you are going to most want the data from the FDR/CVR when the aircraft departs from controlled flight (assuming there is such a departure).
m0nkfish is offline  
Old 2nd May 2022, 09:48
  #482 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: OnScreen
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by m0nkfish View Post
I'm not an expert on satellite communications but would be interested to hear from anyone that is. Do the SATCOM packages installed on civilian aircraft require the antenna to be aligned with an appropriate satellite? If so, it is likely that any uplink is going to be terminated at the point where you are going to most want the data from the FDR/CVR when the aircraft departs from controlled flight (assuming there is such a departure).
Aligning: Yep. Though usually, the reason of an upset is before the upset itself happens.

Regarding the spying out on Pilots: I don't think, this data goes into the regular CVR/FDR, though more into a QAR type, which probably won't survive a crash like MU5735. Though useful, to "control" the political thinking of pilots, ehhhh, to enhance safety to correct pilot errors before these can become an issue.
WideScreen is offline  
Old 2nd May 2022, 13:11
  #483 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Florida
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by m0nkfish View Post
I'm not an expert on satellite communications but would be interested to hear from anyone that is. Do the SATCOM packages installed on civilian aircraft require the antenna to be aligned with an appropriate satellite? If so, it is likely that any uplink is going to be terminated at the point where you are going to most want the data from the FDR/CVR when the aircraft departs from controlled flight (assuming there is such a departure).
Well, as a passenger, I certainly lose satellite TV reception frequently at modest bank angles.
Lake1952 is offline  
Old 4th May 2022, 21:40
  #484 (permalink)  
txl
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Berlin
Age: 54
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Slight detour: In-flight internet isn't done by satellite only. There are newer technologies available that connect an aircraft at cruise altitude to LTE networks on the ground using special upward pointing antennas that cover a radius of about 150km. That obviously works over land only, but delivers decent enough throughput. Aircraft antennas are being installed on the bottom of the fuselage. Much cheaper also for airlines. If you're interested in the details, google "Nokia A2G" for example. The system has been rolled out throughout most of Europe (European Aviation Network/EAN), I don't know about China. But Chinese companies are leading in mobile network tech, so I'd presume they have something like that.
txl is offline  
Old 5th May 2022, 15:32
  #485 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: LFBZ (for a while)
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Do the SATCOM packages installed on civilian aircraft require the antenna to be aligned with an appropriate satellite?
Short answer: yes

Longer answer: and it isn't easy. I worked with a company that does the satellite internet connection for a major US operator, and saw the antenna system with the covers off. The antenna itself is about a metre long and 10cm square. It is attached to a serious dual-gymbal positioning system which can whizz it around at great speed - it is dangerous to be close to it when it is running. iirc it can pull up to about 100A in turbulence. There is however an assumption that it will be on the top surface of the aircraft, not the bottom or the side.

Last edited by n5296s; 5th May 2022 at 16:07.
n5296s is offline  
Old 5th May 2022, 17:11
  #486 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think recent aircraft use phased array solid state antennas with no moving parts. Its the long thin bulge on the top of the aircraft.
jfill is offline  
Old 17th May 2022, 16:42
  #487 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Texas, like a whole other country
Posts: 439
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
WSJ: China Eastern nosedive was intentional

Flight data indicates someone in the cockpit intentionally crashed a China Eastern jet earlier this year, according to people familiar with U.S. officials’ preliminary assessment of what led to the accident.

The Boeing 737-800 was cruising at high altitude when it suddenly pitched into a near-vertical descent, plummeting into a mountain at extreme speed. Data from a black box recovered in the crash suggests inputs to the controls pushed the plane into the fatal dive, these people said.

“The plane did what it was told to do by someone in the cockpit,” said a person who is familiar with American officials’ preliminary assessment, which includes an analysis of information extracted from the plane’s damaged flight-data recorder.

Also underpinning the American officials’ assessment, this person said: Chinese authorities, who are leading the investigation, so far haven’t flagged any mechanical or flight-control problems with the plane involved in the March 21 crash in southern China. That model is a workhorse of the global aviation industry and is part of a family of Boeing aircraft that have one of the best safety records in commercial flying.
Source article here.
Carbon Bootprint is offline  
Old 17th May 2022, 21:41
  #488 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bada Bing
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
https://nypost.com/2022/05/17/black-...tentional-act/
Black box on doomed China Eastern flight indicates crash was intentional: report
Peristatos is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 01:09
  #489 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Asia
Posts: 1,381
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The authorities will now be very concerned with the issue of pilot's mental health if this is true. After the Germanwings crash seven years ago, and a few before that which were suspected but not proven, something needs to be done.

Possibly we're going back to the days of not being left alone in the flight deck again. A psychiatric evaluation could be added to our medicals alongside the usual ECG, audiogram etc.
krismiler is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 01:40
  #490 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by krismiler View Post
Possibly we're going back to the days of not being left alone in the flight deck again.
Is that relevant in this case? I thought there were two other pilots in the China Eastern cockpit at the time, and it apparently made no difference.
pattern_is_full is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 05:08
  #491 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 208
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by krismiler View Post
Possibly we're going back to the days of not being left alone in the flight deck again. A psychiatric evaluation could be added to our medicals alongside the usual ECG, audiogram etc.
How does that help? All you're doing is introducing yet another potentially mentally unwell person into the flight deck, standing right behind the seated pilot and next to the crash axe. There is a reason the requirement lasted less than a year, even at Germanwings.
das Uber Soldat is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 05:11
  #492 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: OnScreen
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
For now, the description is still vague and does not trace 1:1 back to a deliberate pilot (or someone else's) action.

The description suggests, it was a nose-down happening, so a pitch issue and no aileron input or engine failure or so.

The description doesn't say, whether this is a control column or trim happening.

A deliberate pilot action would not so much match with a control regain, halfway down and subsequently again a nose-down movement. Nor would a deliberate action match with the obvious attempt to "keep the airplane on course".

Strange thing is, we only do hear about the FDR results and not about the CVR, where the CVR might give the verbal pilot interaction, a more conclusive aspect around a deliberate action.

So, for now, the whole is far from conclusive (despite the world press jumping on the "deliberate" description).
WideScreen is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 05:48
  #493 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Seattle
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The “authorities” were very concerned seven years ago and did pretty much nothing. All psychiatric evaluations will do is create a bunch of false positives; tell a bunch of psychiatrists/psychologists to find problem pilots and they will go and find them for you. Doesn’t matter if they are the risky ones; Something Will Have Been Done. And the at risk pilots will be wise enough to *gasp* hide their problems.

The problem is rare enough that the governments/regulators/airlines/management can afford the occasional worldwide suicide/hull loss versus the worldwide cost of doing something effective about it. Key word being effective.

So anticipate some ineffective, not thought through responses that will be quietly dropped in the future at some point.
BoeingDriver99 is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 05:50
  #494 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Seattle
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
WideScreen has it occurred to you that the other two pilots in the flight deck may have disagreed with the other pilot and perhaps attempted to take control?
BoeingDriver99 is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 06:15
  #495 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: big green wheely bin
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I’m not buying it.
These Boeings have a history of “deliberately” crashing. The only suicide I know of that’s been confirmed was the German Wings one. The rest are conjecture to save the manufacturer,
Jonty is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 06:58
  #496 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 3,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Jonty View Post
I’m not buying it.
These Boeings have a history of “deliberately” crashing. The only suicide I know of that’s been confirmed was the German Wings one. The rest are conjecture to save the manufacturer,
Can you kindly point us to this “history” ?
SOPS is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 07:41
  #497 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Manchester
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
BBC News: China Eastern plane crash likely intentional, US reports say

China Eastern plane crash likely intentional, US reports say
slfool is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 07:48
  #498 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Asia
Posts: 1,381
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If we look at the number of actual or suspected suicide crashes involving just commercial flights and excluding terrorist incidents, the numbers are quite disturbing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_pilot

A technical issue on a particular type which was causing a hull loss this frequently would be unacceptable and the fleet would be grounded until it was rectified. The authorities will need to be seen to be taking action, even if it's ineffective at least they tried something. Having a cabin crew come in when one pilot left the flight deck didn't really achieve anything. The next step could be psychiatric evaluations which enable the buck to be passed on to the psychiatrist if anything happens.
​​
krismiler is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 07:53
  #499 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Bridgwater
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Let's not forget there are cultures where Pilot Suicide is considered unacceptable as a cause for a crash hence the local authorities and the airline themselves will look for a face saving alternative - blaming the plane - even though in the case of (e.g.) EgyptAir 990 it was pretty clear that the relief pilot had caused the crash.....
FullMetalJackass is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 07:57
  #500 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 523
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If not even the cockpit colleagues sitting next to him get any warning right before I doubt that a psychiatrist can give guarantees. The 4U pilot back then deliberately split up his issues and met different doctors to hide the size of his only known to him problems.
Should all mental illnesses be blocked now, including pilots having suffered only for limited periods? Just to be on the safe side?
On the other hand what does it mean for teamwork, trust and safety culture? Will this bring us the single pilot cockpit with remote surveillance and some AI-master check for "plausible" flight operations?
Less Hair is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.