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Mid Air in the US

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Mid Air in the US

Old 13th May 2021, 04:42
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2001
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The Cirrus is the plane that did the parachute landing, not the first solo. The plane doing the first solo was a Cessna 172, the high wing propeller plane pictured below.

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Old 13th May 2021, 04:45
  #22 (permalink)  
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Think there's a mixup between planes, sounds more to me that the Cessna was the solo.
The video that mentions first solo is even titled "This all happened during my first student solo at KAPA. I was flying in N65251 and reported pulled chute and location of downed cirrus"
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Old 13th May 2021, 04:47
  #23 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Roundsounds
The only thing that seems to be missing was an effective lookout. A lookout completes the “Alerted see and avoid” traffic avoidance method. There’s way too much reliance on ATC and technology, a proper lookout scan and Situational Awareness (mental picture of surrounding traffic) will prevent these types of accident.
Sounds good in theory.

Originally Posted by Koran
The controller then cleared the Cirrus to land and pointed out the Metroliner as additional traffic going on approach to the parallel and the Cirrus pilot reported it in sight.
Clearly, he did not have the metroliner in sight because he ran into him. "Traffic in sight" appears to be in reference to the Cessna he was following. Now if he had said "Cessna in sight" then ATC would have taken further action.

Originally Posted by bcflyer
The Cirrus pilot overshoots the centreline of both runways
The runways are only 200m apart. I would have thought an overshoot of that magnitude at a couple of miles out for a lighty would not be unexpected.
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Old 13th May 2021, 05:50
  #24 (permalink)  
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Furthermore, it would appear that ATC did not pass the SR22 traffic to the Metro. Given they were going to be close (so close that they eventually hit each other), the Metro should have got traffic on the SR22. I certainly wouldn't like to be flying down final on a 200m parallel with an aeroplane right beside me without watching them closely.

Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 13th May 2021 at 13:06. Reason: Removed incorrect hypothesis re ATC.
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Old 13th May 2021, 07:15
  #25 (permalink)  
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Given that they were converging, with the Metroliner just below the Cirrus (as it hit the top), it could be one of those unfortunate occurrences where a) there was a constant relative bearing, and b) the nose of the SR22 might have partially or wholly obscured the view of the Metroliner.

The SR22 pilot would have likely been concentrating more on the runway than anything else, same goes for the other pilot. Short finals is a classic area for conflict: its not at all uncommon for aircraft to get really close without realising, especially when one is just above/below the other.
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Old 13th May 2021, 07:23
  #26 (permalink)  
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I read elsewhere that the Cirrus groundspeed on base was something like 186 kts ... if that's true it seems a little "hot" and probably a good reason for screwing the pooch on the final turn?
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Old 13th May 2021, 10:23
  #27 (permalink)  
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Obviously the Cirrus was belly-up on the Metroliner and most likely never saw him as he probably was fixating on the runway on his right side to correcti his overshoot.
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Old 13th May 2021, 11:14
  #28 (permalink)  
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Capn Bloggs

Two different frequencies I think, that was typical at KAPA when I flew there. The west runway (17R in this case) and all the T&G aircraft stay on it, then the east runway has the aircraft arriving and departing from KAPA. Notice the one video shows TWR East and TWR West.

Last edited by mnttech; 13th May 2021 at 11:34.
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Old 13th May 2021, 12:27
  #29 (permalink)  
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The Cirrus prop seems to be undamaged. At least it does not show the sort of damage that would be expected if it had passed through the fuselage of the Metro. The left wing of the Cirrus seems to have hit high on the Metro's tail. I'd speculate that the Cirrus was in an aggressive pull up when it hit.

I'm taking an interest in the accident because I fly at an airport with a similar environment - parallel runways, separate tower frequencies, and lots of student traffic. The only good thing about the COVID pandemic is that there has been a significant reduction in student activity.
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Old 13th May 2021, 12:52
  #30 (permalink)  
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Parallel runways closer than some UK taxyways are to their runway.

Different radio frequencies for each.

Traffic including basic-level students brought in side by side without any stagger.

How do they manage without this happening regularly ?
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Old 13th May 2021, 13:06
  #31 (permalink)  
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Point taken. I'll edit my other post.
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Old 13th May 2021, 14:22
  #32 (permalink)  
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How can it be a “solo” with two occupants?
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Old 13th May 2021, 14:35
  #33 (permalink)  
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For goodness sake, it has already been explained above that the Cirrus was not on a first solo flight. The solo flight applied to the Cessna 172 who reported the chute deployment of the Cirrus.
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Old 13th May 2021, 16:02
  #34 (permalink)  
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The SR22 has fixed landing gear. They appear to be missing in both the video of the descent, and post-touchdown still pictures.

So yes and no - definitely damaged, but the gear seem to have absorbed the worst of the impact for the Cirrus.

A last-second pull-up is possible, but so is just being lucky in one's position a foot or a fraction of a meter.

This accident shares characteristics with other collisions involving flight paths converging at a shallow angle - from PSA 727-Cessna at KSAN (1978) to the helo-Piper collision over the Hudson (2009).

I'm sure the NTSB will get full use out of their nifty-difty re-creation/simulation tools for examining what obstructions to vision each aircraft was experiencing in the last seconds.
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Old 13th May 2021, 16:48
  #35 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Chiefttp View Post
Obviously the Cirrus was belly-up on the Metroliner and most likely never saw him as he probably was fixating on the runway on his right side to correct his overshoot.
Highlighted by me. Maybe the Cirrus pilot never had visually identified the Metroliner. Because his altitude seems a little higher, plus in a right turn, make it hard for a low wing aircraft to see this Metroliner.
Maybe he misinterpreted the aircraft he had identified or he did not expect 2 aircraft on the final.
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Old 13th May 2021, 16:57
  #36 (permalink)  
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As a note, during a parachute descent, the Cirrus relies on the gear collapse to dissipate energy on impact with the ground. So their arrival may have been a bit more firm than Cirrus intended.

Last edited by slacktide; 13th May 2021 at 17:08.
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Old 13th May 2021, 18:09
  #37 (permalink)  
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Some views of the Cirrus in this news clip:
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Old 13th May 2021, 19:18
  #38 (permalink)  
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As a Licensed Engineer/Mechanic, any thoughts on what Type-Approval I would need to remove Cirrus Landing Gear from a Metroliner?
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Old 13th May 2021, 19:38
  #39 (permalink)  
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You have more faith in human visual processing and cognitive capacity than I do. You can scan until your head falls off but if you can't spot it, you can't avoid it. You may believe your 'SA' to be 100% but you don't know what you don't know...
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Old 13th May 2021, 20:00
  #40 (permalink)  
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I fly a Cirrus SR22T and would concur that it is not a simple aircraft. However it is marketed to people who may not have a lot of background in aviation. Cirrus compensate for this by having very comprehensive training and an amazing autopilot/flight management system. The aircraft was making the turn to final at what appears to be high speed. It will be interesting to see whether the pilot was hand flying. One possible scenario is that the pilot was concentrating on the preceding traffic possibly with the autopilot flying and seems to have left a high power setting which contributed to them overshooting the turn. The left wing in a right turn to final may have blocked view of the metroliner and the smaller aircraft rather unusually appears to catch and cross the larger aircraft. The parachute worked as advertised while the cargo pilot proceeded to land while displaying amazing cool, truly the 'right stuff'.
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