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40% of Pakistani pilots hold fake flying licenses: Aviation Minister

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40% of Pakistani pilots hold fake flying licenses: Aviation Minister

Old 25th Jun 2020, 16:28
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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ICAO have known about this for years and turned a blind eye. Same as the English Language Proficiency Rating. Every Korean and Chineses pilot has Level 6.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 17:32
  #22 (permalink)  
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Corporate culture - or organizational culture - is often informed by the meta culture (the overarching cultural context). Attitudes and behaviors do not occur in a vacuum. This can all be discussed professionally, to be sure, rather than like a bunch of mates in the pub with a few pints in them.
Yes.

This topic is well worth the discussion, and I would like to promote the discussion. Certainly, if the problem is more widespread than just PIA, that is valid for discussion. I appreciate a professional discussion, which would be equally welcome in the lounge of qualified, professional pilots, anywhere in the world!
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 17:46
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Seems like you might be about 40% down on the numbers of qualified, professional pilots should you hold the discussion in Pakistan

The Problem of bogus flying qualifications is well known among recruiters outside the counties where these licenses are issued.

Most are discovered during the hiring process, by admin staff, perhaps not all, I don’t know . Echoing the experience of a previous poster; some candidates are barely able to fly relatively simple exercises during recruitment
Simulator sessions.

Their ability does not match stated experience by a long shot , are their licenses bogus, or is it simply a lack of ability or both ? .

I hasten to add this does not apply to all candidates from the region but sufficient numbers appear to give cause for concern .
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 18:06
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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I seem to remember a Squadron pilot who prior to joining had apparently flown commercially in the US. His log books were by all accounts works of pure fiction but no doubt impressed OASC.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 18:16
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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As bad as it gets

This is not humorous. It is tragic. The world bodies must immediately check individual countries and airlines.

The airlines who let this go through - knowingly or not must be grounded with immediate effect.

It is a good time to do this, during the virus crisis lull. Maybe the more deserving professional outfits can pick up some business.

Absolutely unacceptable and criminal. Folks are getting killed by these bastards. Says a lot about the moral state of the World.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 18:22
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by esscee View Post
As long as they have a piece of paper ( licence ) with their name on it, then as far as they are concerned they are now someone entitled and it does not matter one bit how that has been achieved.
And that in my opinion succinctly and absolutely accurately nails the entire problem, it is cultural, and comes from Societies that hold very little in the way of values, the usual suspects where religion and the law are one and the same thing if you get my drift. Working for a SE Asian airline I flew with one such Captain, until I forced the issue, SOP's were not his strength, and his propensity for being a salvage merchant was well known as well as being supremely arrogant. Safety "department" was a joke.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 19:58
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jonnyknoxville View Post
I once had 2 experienced captains in the sim from that general direction - it was glaringly obvious that something was amiss . I don't believe that they had ever flown the type of aircraft they had thousands of hours in and made a report to highlight the issue . Never heard anymore after it .
Jonnyk,

Just to flesh out your encounter with these two individuals to understand how these things happen, were you a sim instructor at an ATO where they came for recurrent training on contract as individuals ? Or were they sent there by an airline ? I assume they were not pilots at an airline where you worked ?
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 20:24
  #28 (permalink)  
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Donít forget China too.
https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/...t_11265252.htm
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 20:26
  #29 (permalink)  
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-37482960
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 20:58
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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We should centrally record pilot qualifications and careers like car mileage and repairs. Any iPad and some central, neutral database could do it. Paper logbooks are not safe from manipulation.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 22:06
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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I tried to challenge an Air India 787 crew recently in Delhi airport about their decision making on the flight into Delhi (I was flying a similar route) but they, surprisingly, ran off.
Wonder why.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 22:09
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Less Hair View Post
We should centrally record pilot qualifications and careers like car mileage and repairs. Any iPad and some central, neutral database could do it. Paper logbooks are not safe from manipulation.
You can look up FAA licenses (but not the logbooks) here: https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airmeninquiry/

Unfortunately, pilots who have been terminated for cause will still get an employment verification these days. Airlines won't say much to avoid costly employment litigation if they give someone a bad reference. I can think of a few egregious examples in recent years. The pilot flying in the Atlas Air 3591 freighter crash had an abysmal training and employment record but it was swept under the rug, perhaps by the HR department.

It's almost impossible to get fired (permanently, anyway) as a pilot at a major U.S. airline if you have a union card from what I've seen. Under the Railway Labor Act you get a long series of appeals and hearings and a deal is often cut along the way. Still, every few months someone succeeds.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 22:25
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Ban PIA and any other carrier suspected of having an honesty issue until they can prove otherwise.
Although, to be fair, we do get them here in the west too, just far far fewer.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 22:53
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
ICAO have known about this for years and turned a blind eye. Same as the English Language Proficiency Rating. Every Korean and Chineses pilot has Level 6.
from current personal experience that it patently untrue
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 23:03
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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During flight training we had an Italian, pretty much the only thing she could say in English was "ICAO LEVEL SIX". She flies the A350 now.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 00:20
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sholayo View Post
Hehe, I find it hilarious in the context of recent surge of complaints in this forum that more often than not there is notion of "cultural factors" when accidents occurs where pilot error was a root cause.
Here you go in own words of Pakistani minister.

PS
This is the best part of CNN coverage:
"PIA has grounded all its pilots who hold fake licenses, effective immediately."
Sounds like they knew about the issue and apparently even had a list but until yesterday took no action.
That would be my educated guess as well.

I would make another educated guess that there were people making money out of this corrupt system.

They got caught and had to go public. I imagine the people involved are frantically trying to shift the blame away from themselves. All very typical for that part of the World.

Instead of opposing Corruption - people are trying to find ways to get in on the action! That's why things never change imho

Didn't their PM Imran Khan get elected on an anti Corruption platform?
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 02:07
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flash8 View Post
And that in my opinion succinctly and absolutely accurately nails the entire problem, it is cultural, and comes from Societies that hold very little in the way of values, the usual suspects where religion and the law are one and the same thing if you get my drift. Working for a SE Asian airline I flew with one such Captain, until I forced the issue, SOP's were not his strength, and his propensity for being a salvage merchant was well known as well as being supremely arrogant. Safety "department" was a joke.
I get your drift. Yup...
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 02:12
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
You can look up FAA licenses (but not the logbooks) here: https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airmeninquiry/

Unfortunately, pilots who have been terminated for cause will still get an employment verification these days. Airlines won't say much to avoid costly employment litigation if they give someone a bad reference. I can think of a few egregious examples in recent years. The pilot flying in the Atlas Air 3591 freighter crash had an abysmal training and employment record but it was swept under the rug, perhaps by the HR department.

It's almost impossible to get fired (permanently, anyway) as a pilot at a major U.S. airline if you have a union card from what I've seen. Under the Railway Labor Act you get a long series of appeals and hearings and a deal is often cut along the way. Still, every few months someone succeeds.
not entirely true. My current employer is getting good at letting go of dead weight, sop violators and sub par performers. The RLA doesnít assist pilots. On the contrary. The atlas incident was the worst example of HR hi jacking our profession. The HR person in question isnít even qualified to be head of HR, let alone pilot recruiting. She was smug and arrogant when I met her at an interview. Good thing she didnít hire me, a current 747 FO and B-52 pilot that interviewed with me.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 06:39
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Two ways of looking at this. Either the minister is completely off his rocking chair or they have decided enough is enough and the only way to fix the corrupt system and this woefully corrupt airline is to drag the guilty parties out into the light by the hair. In the short term yes it will create much pain and mistrust but they get to remove a major cancer this way and this way only. Air India deserves the same.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 08:06
  #40 (permalink)  

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The number one priority of any government is to protect its citizens.

This PIA airbus tragedy killed all except two on board.
The reckless conduct of the pilots has acted as a catalyst to investigate the corruption and forgery not only of [“fake”] licence issue, but also the conduct of revalidations & renewals to demonstrate continuing competency.

This wholly avoidable event should concentrate the minds of both Regulators and airlines to get not only the ‘Safety Culture’ right, but the whole process of training and examinations by adopting best practice.
Computerised exams be it FAA or EASA style. Acceptance of external audit teams through ICAO. Without that level of assurance standards will unlikely improve.

The airlines flight safety depts need ask themselves but one question today ~ are we an accident waiting to happen?
Those who believe a go around is a sign of weakness ( non macho style) need to think again.
Heroic “Pony Express” mentality needs to be confined to the history books.

The simple question crews must ask themselves ~ can the airline afford a HULL LOSS.
We all depend upon each other for continuing employment.

Follow the aircraft manufacturers operating recommendations. Invest heavily in flight data monitoring.
The step by step process for those resistant to change must start with education ~ engage ~ explain ~ encourage ~ enforce. (Scotland’s approach the C-19 public education).

Last edited by parkfell; 26th Jun 2020 at 08:42.
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