40% of Pakistani pilots hold fake flying licenses: Aviation Minister
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SAA introduced a requirement for their co-pilots to have an ATPL. The guy who was involved in the incident did not get one when they changed the rules, but had somehow fudged things to continue flying. At the very least this showed a lack of integrity and he immediately left when found out. I was merely surmising if there was any similarity with the situation in Pakistan or whether they really do just have lower requirements. What is not in any doubt is that the qualification and competency of Pakistani pilots is now very much under the spotlight. Whether we are talking fraudulent licences, Parker pen hours or lack of regulatory oversight remains to be seen. This is not something new and unexpected. You can google Lulsgate Cowboy for a colourful story from the past which if I remember correctly follows a similar theme.
Last edited by lederhosen; 2nd Jul 2020 at 11:21.
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Originally Posted by lederhosen
What is not in any doubt is that the qualification and competency of Pakistani pilots is now very much under the spotlight......... or lack of regulatory oversight remains to be seen. .
Going forward secure exam computerised setting and marking, EASA style, will need to be adopted to satisfy their regulations.
The more complex and delicate issue will be verifying that existing licence holders credentials are valid.
These days it would be next to impossible for someone starting out in a first world country to obtain a flying licence by dodgy methods. The background checks, retention of training records by the flying school, computerised exam testing and officials who won't take bribes, make for many layers in the Swiss cheese model. In the past a few may have slipped through the net, but this doesn't imply a systemic problem, holes were exploited which have now been closed.
If 40% of qualifications are found to be fraudulent then the whole system is rotten and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up and I would suspect that it isn't confined to the aviation sector in Pakistan. The automatic acceptance with minimal checking, of qualifications issued in third world countries for any profession needs to be reconsidered.
An Indian driving licence holder will have to do a full driving test before being issued with a local licence in most countries, as the standards are known to be appalling where as a medical qualification from the same country would be far more easily accepted ??? This guy probably found it easier to be allowed to perform surgery in Australia than to be allowed to drive a car.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jayant_Patel
In some respects, a CPL holder with a recently issued licence and limited experience would be more attractive to an airline than a Captain with decades of flying as claimed experience, training records and exam results would be much easier to verify.
If 40% of qualifications are found to be fraudulent then the whole system is rotten and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up and I would suspect that it isn't confined to the aviation sector in Pakistan. The automatic acceptance with minimal checking, of qualifications issued in third world countries for any profession needs to be reconsidered.
An Indian driving licence holder will have to do a full driving test before being issued with a local licence in most countries, as the standards are known to be appalling where as a medical qualification from the same country would be far more easily accepted ??? This guy probably found it easier to be allowed to perform surgery in Australia than to be allowed to drive a car.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jayant_Patel
In some respects, a CPL holder with a recently issued licence and limited experience would be more attractive to an airline than a Captain with decades of flying as claimed experience, training records and exam results would be much easier to verify.
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Fake Licences? Tip of the ice berg.
However it just goes to show all the academic stuff is not worth sh#t, when it comes down to operating an a/c. How come? Well 40% of the pilots in the nation in question have fake licences. With the exception of law (parrot fashion) and meteorology and maybe one ot two other subjects, why all the examinations. Can they fly the aircraft of not? They obviously could.
I knew a guy in the states years ago, what early '70's, had a PPL, he was flying long DC8'S. they only picked it up through some paper work check or rather. He has been flying the DC8 for years. A pilot of long standing, he was too.
When I was flying in India, the DGCA were the first ever aviation authority to require me to produce proof of licence, from the issuing authority. I have about 6 licence validations issued by other authorities, previous to that. I'll put money on the fact the fakes, in the above mentioned country, would be at least 40%
Funny old world ain't it?
However it just goes to show all the academic stuff is not worth sh#t, when it comes down to operating an a/c. How come? Well 40% of the pilots in the nation in question have fake licences. With the exception of law (parrot fashion) and meteorology and maybe one ot two other subjects, why all the examinations. Can they fly the aircraft of not? They obviously could.
I knew a guy in the states years ago, what early '70's, had a PPL, he was flying long DC8'S. they only picked it up through some paper work check or rather. He has been flying the DC8 for years. A pilot of long standing, he was too.
When I was flying in India, the DGCA were the first ever aviation authority to require me to produce proof of licence, from the issuing authority. I have about 6 licence validations issued by other authorities, previous to that. I'll put money on the fact the fakes, in the above mentioned country, would be at least 40%
Funny old world ain't it?
Last edited by John_Reid; 3rd Jul 2020 at 19:20.
de minimus non curat lex
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The recent history of Licences and more
If you want a gentle bit of bed time reading try :
samchui.com
An “exclusive” insight into the intrigue concerning
their Minister of Aviation / CAA / AAIB / Court Judgements as described by:
”a letter from a Pakistani Pilot”.
samchui.com
An “exclusive” insight into the intrigue concerning
their Minister of Aviation / CAA / AAIB / Court Judgements as described by:
”a letter from a Pakistani Pilot”.
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Not so fake after all
https://www.dawn.com/news/1566500/cry-for-pia
The language of the letter is significantly watered down compared to the bombast with which the announcement in parliament was made. What are these indications? What are the grounds to suspect the genuineness of the licences in question? All this has yet to be established. The letter sent to the PIA CEO did not say that these pilots have fake licences and should be turfed out. It said only that the pilots mentioned in the attached list should be grounded while formal proceedings under the relevant Civil Aviation Rules 1994 should be carried out. During these proceedings, the letter continued, “appropriate opportunity … shall be provided by Civil Aviation Authority to each individual pilot to clarify his/her position”.
Now take a deep breath and pause. It turns out that the minister does not have evidence that the pilot licences in question are fake. All he has are indications that give grounds to suspect this. Based on these indications, he can proceed under the established rules to determine case by case whether the suspicions are indeed borne out or not. And each pilot in question has to be given a chance to clear his or her position.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1566500/cry-for-pia
Now take a deep breath and pause. It turns out that the minister does not have evidence that the pilot licences in question are fake. All he has are indications that give grounds to suspect this. Based on these indications, he can proceed under the established rules to determine case by case whether the suspicions are indeed borne out or not. And each pilot in question has to be given a chance to clear his or her position.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1566500/cry-for-pia
Last edited by CW247; 7th Jul 2020 at 08:07.
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Racket
Originally Posted by JMock
from current personal experience that it patently untrue
I have taken several times in several countries
1 It was given by Ozzy’s with a VERY thick accent, I had no problem but some people never knew what they were saying, and parts of the test was clear oriented to airlines. They were asking a bout push backs and most people taking it were GA pilots, that never have been pushed back....
2 it was a Chinese that the interviewer, talked terrible english (yes this time was a interview portion)
3 another time in the Middle East, they told me that they could only give level 5
4 I have an FAA license without restrictions, so I do not really need it, but this is my experience
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Reuters update 16 July
Pakistan have validated 166 licences of pilots working abroad. They are “genuine and certified” according to their CAA. The remaining 10 will be announced next week. The overseas Regulators have been notified.
Of the 262 grounded pilots, 28 licences have been revoked and cancelled, with 76 still to be verified.
Of the 262 grounded pilots, 28 licences have been revoked and cancelled, with 76 still to be verified.
As was pointed out in many earlier posts there are 2 kinds of fraudulent licenses. They are either fake as is not actually issued by the regulator, or genuine but issued on the basis of a fraudulent application ( eg having someone else write exams for you, or bribing an examiner to pass you).
There still doesn't seem to be much clarity over which category the "fake" licenses fall in. At the risk of over generalizing, Pakistan does have a reputation of endemic corruption in many public agencies. I wonder what appetite there is to go further than a simple test of whether or not a particular pilot holds a genuine license document, to the far more contentious and difficult test as to whether or not the that document was issued on the basis of a fraudulent application ?
There still doesn't seem to be much clarity over which category the "fake" licenses fall in. At the risk of over generalizing, Pakistan does have a reputation of endemic corruption in many public agencies. I wonder what appetite there is to go further than a simple test of whether or not a particular pilot holds a genuine license document, to the far more contentious and difficult test as to whether or not the that document was issued on the basis of a fraudulent application ?
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"There still doesn't seem to be much clarity over which category the "fake" licenses fall in." (Big Pistons Forever)
If I recall properly the EASA decision document "Suspension of Third Country Operator Authorisation" effective as of July 1 2020 does not reference the pilot licensure issues in any direct manner, nor does it refer to such issues by implication either. (Although, one would have to either recognize the particular contents of the provisions cited by the EASA or look them up, to be certain about whether or not the licensing issues were at least noted by subtle implication.)
But timing . . . it does not take much imagination, if any imaginings at all are needed, to see a pretty high likelihood that EASA's decision making officials were cognizant of the licensing controversy, and to understand that these issues were a factor which it is quite rational to "read between the lines" as part of the decision basis. And by controversy, it appears certain that the lack of clarity as to which type of fakery is involved is part of the situation.
If I recall properly the EASA decision document "Suspension of Third Country Operator Authorisation" effective as of July 1 2020 does not reference the pilot licensure issues in any direct manner, nor does it refer to such issues by implication either. (Although, one would have to either recognize the particular contents of the provisions cited by the EASA or look them up, to be certain about whether or not the licensing issues were at least noted by subtle implication.)
But timing . . . it does not take much imagination, if any imaginings at all are needed, to see a pretty high likelihood that EASA's decision making officials were cognizant of the licensing controversy, and to understand that these issues were a factor which it is quite rational to "read between the lines" as part of the decision basis. And by controversy, it appears certain that the lack of clarity as to which type of fakery is involved is part of the situation.
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BigPistonsForever said
I'm a long time lurker, but felt I could contribute to this thread. I spent my childhood in South East Asia, and then during my career I have worked for 2 years in Japan and 6 months in Indonesia, as well as making many short trips to Thailand, Malaysia, China and others. It seems like the majority of PPRuNe posters are "Westerners", and so would have little idea of the culture in South East Asia. Until I actually lived there I had no idea of the scale of corruption in some countries - I was stunned!
First experience was befriending someone from the British Foreign Office in Tokyo - he had previously worked in India, and was the target of several internal inquiries because of his refusal to accept some "official documents", e.g. a visa applicant with a Birth Certificate saying they were 25 when they obviously were in their mid-thirties or even older. He got so fed up that he bought an official death certificate - for himself. This was no PhotoShop forgery - this was issued by an Indian Government office . If a court in England had made enquiries of the Indian Government they would have concluded he was dead.
But the scale of corruption in Indonesia was just stunning. I was working for a sub-contractor on a World Bank project. Now I saw the obvious police corruption - stopping the little mini-vans that provide public transport and "collecting money". If they didn't pay up the police would find a problem with their van - and there were lots of problems - bald tyres, rust, etc. So cheaper just to pay up. But one of the long-term ex-pats told me how the system worked in the Government Department the project was for. A permanent government job in Indonesia is "gold", so to show their appreciation the lowest rung employees pay around 10% of their salaries to their boss. He in his turn has to show his appreciation to his boss, and so it goes up the pyramid.. So it's simply a way of life there.
So, based on my experience I would expect that in a lot of South East Asian countries you would have to pay a bribe to get your pilots license - that's the way the system works. If you can actually fly - that would be a bonus!
As was pointed out in many earlier posts there are 2 kinds of fraudulent licenses. They are either fake as is not actually issued by the regulator, or genuine but issued on the basis of a fraudulent application ( eg having someone else write exams for you, or bribing an examiner to pass you).
First experience was befriending someone from the British Foreign Office in Tokyo - he had previously worked in India, and was the target of several internal inquiries because of his refusal to accept some "official documents", e.g. a visa applicant with a Birth Certificate saying they were 25 when they obviously were in their mid-thirties or even older. He got so fed up that he bought an official death certificate - for himself. This was no PhotoShop forgery - this was issued by an Indian Government office . If a court in England had made enquiries of the Indian Government they would have concluded he was dead.
But the scale of corruption in Indonesia was just stunning. I was working for a sub-contractor on a World Bank project. Now I saw the obvious police corruption - stopping the little mini-vans that provide public transport and "collecting money". If they didn't pay up the police would find a problem with their van - and there were lots of problems - bald tyres, rust, etc. So cheaper just to pay up. But one of the long-term ex-pats told me how the system worked in the Government Department the project was for. A permanent government job in Indonesia is "gold", so to show their appreciation the lowest rung employees pay around 10% of their salaries to their boss. He in his turn has to show his appreciation to his boss, and so it goes up the pyramid.. So it's simply a way of life there.
So, based on my experience I would expect that in a lot of South East Asian countries you would have to pay a bribe to get your pilots license - that's the way the system works. If you can actually fly - that would be a bonus!
Last edited by Pilot DAR; 19th Jul 2020 at 11:04. Reason: typo
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The above post (#159) sums up the problems very well indeed. Why waste time and money when you can buy your licence. The next scandal to break will be the medical profession, some of the "so-called" doctors from Asia are completely incompetent, and that really is costing peoples' lives as much as fake Pilots/engineers etc.
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I bought my car driving license, my motorcycle driving license and my International driving license in Manila.
I'm also an "agent" for the Phillipine National Police and as such immune, says so on my ID.
I'm also an "agent" for the Phillipine National Police and as such immune, says so on my ID.
Well, this came out of the FAA yesterday:
"competency of the airmen examined by Mr. xxxxx from the period of October 2008 through December 2019 is in doubt."
I just have to wonder where the over sight was for 11 years....
https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G.../N8900.555.pdf
"competency of the airmen examined by Mr. xxxxx from the period of October 2008 through December 2019 is in doubt."
I just have to wonder where the over sight was for 11 years....
https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G.../N8900.555.pdf
