United Airlines, Chapter 11 status
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Lomapaseo - if you have travelled all of those miles and have not noticed the steady deterioration of service than you must really not have been paying attention. I have travelled on UAL, AA, US, DL, NW over the last 10-12 years although not in the multi million mile capacity and have seen service go from decent to intolerable. What is killing the big airlines is charging people like me who do not have control of their schedules several thousand dollars for a seat when the adjacent is occupied by some leisure traveller who paid $200 for his seat. In addition to this affront they don't even attempt to provide any value for the additional money - in fact the quality of the experience has continually gone down as the fares have gone up! It was telling that the UAL spokesman at O'Hare stated today that now that they have filed Ch 11 their customer service hass no where to go but up - finally a true statement from the management types - but a sad commentary on the state of most big carriers
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Nothing against the girls and guys who drive for united but the reailityis that when a QF 747 (classic) takes off from Akl for LA the F/O's hourly rate is less than a UAL F/A.
Let alone what the QF F/A's are being paid.
Note to potential 'heros' though - aust pilot wages are abmismal, don't bother coming down.
rgs
FS
Let alone what the QF F/A's are being paid.
Note to potential 'heros' though - aust pilot wages are abmismal, don't bother coming down.
rgs
FS
e28 driver
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Kinsman, Possum and Avius:
If you read whatshouldiuse's post it says that the following was from the UAL bulletin board and then at the end makes it clear at the end that the text in quotations was all from the bulletin board.
Are you people pilots? If so I hope you check the facts before you shoot from the hip when you are flying...
If you read whatshouldiuse's post it says that the following was from the UAL bulletin board and then at the end makes it clear at the end that the text in quotations was all from the bulletin board.
Are you people pilots? If so I hope you check the facts before you shoot from the hip when you are flying...
Lomapaseo - if you have travelled all of those miles and have not noticed the steady deterioration of service than you must really not have been paying attention.
It's useless to argue against another person's experiences. You have yours and I have mine.
However, I do accept your facts and your personal opinions even though I don't agree with your opinion.
e28 driver
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I don't agree with the way the writer of the comments of the quotation in whatshouldiuse's post were written. However, as a turboprop pilot flying for a franchise of a flag carrying airline, earning roughly half that of my mainline counterparts I might be inclined to agree with the sentiment of the statements. Having said that I would fight tooth and nail to protect those terms and conditions if I were in their shoes, who wouldn't?
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For Ignition Override:
The only one of those experts I have talked to personally is Aaron Gellman and he is very knowledgable and very smart and has forgotten more about the airline business than most everybody (management, labor, regulators etc) else has learned.
I may not always agree with him but it is worthwhile to listen to him because whether he gets paid tomorrow or not does not depend on an airline job, a journo job, a stck market "analist" job, or a government appointment/job. What he says is his real "no S' opinion based on many years experience and analysis.
The only one of those experts I have talked to personally is Aaron Gellman and he is very knowledgable and very smart and has forgotten more about the airline business than most everybody (management, labor, regulators etc) else has learned.
I may not always agree with him but it is worthwhile to listen to him because whether he gets paid tomorrow or not does not depend on an airline job, a journo job, a stck market "analist" job, or a government appointment/job. What he says is his real "no S' opinion based on many years experience and analysis.
Union Goon
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Whoshouldiuse,
During the last contract go around at AMR when Crandal was still in controll, the APA (That is the union that represents that American pilots) offered crandal the Southwest pilot's contract word for word, including the reduction in retirement and whatnot that it would entail.
Crandall said he couldn't afford it and we signed the current contract that we are operating instead.
Crandall is just trying to jawbone wages down further, without actually analyzing the wages.
Cheers
Wino
During the last contract go around at AMR when Crandal was still in controll, the APA (That is the union that represents that American pilots) offered crandal the Southwest pilot's contract word for word, including the reduction in retirement and whatnot that it would entail.
Crandall said he couldn't afford it and we signed the current contract that we are operating instead.
Crandall is just trying to jawbone wages down further, without actually analyzing the wages.
Cheers
Wino
I had an arsehole transplant but the arsehole rejected me, which is why I write such rubbish
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Don't shoot the messenger
Hey Folks;
I was merely trying to represent the view of the Stockholders in UAL. Obviously, I didn't convey that message clearly enough.
If you want to see something really nasty, envisage somebody evaluating if UAL Flight Attendants lost 5lb each, how much the fuel savings would be over a year.....This is on the Yahoo UAL board by the way :-)
and no Possum..don't buy stocks. Too many crooks or is that Kooks involved. Much prefer to sit back and observe..and remain a working stiff who is poor but happy.
Andy
I was merely trying to represent the view of the Stockholders in UAL. Obviously, I didn't convey that message clearly enough.
If you want to see something really nasty, envisage somebody evaluating if UAL Flight Attendants lost 5lb each, how much the fuel savings would be over a year.....This is on the Yahoo UAL board by the way :-)
and no Possum..don't buy stocks. Too many crooks or is that Kooks involved. Much prefer to sit back and observe..and remain a working stiff who is poor but happy.
Andy
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Crandall
Wino--Crandall is just getting in a shot he couldn't while he was still CEO. He couldn't live with the SWA contract because AA couldn't operate that effeciently.
The airline would collapse if there wasn't at least one 3 hour sit at a hub each day of the pairing.
TC
The airline would collapse if there wasn't at least one 3 hour sit at a hub each day of the pairing.
TC
Folks: when stockholders invest a large chunk of money in airline stock, they are knowingly and voluntarily(!) risking their money in a very unpredictable industry.
But in many cases (maybe hundreds or more), these folks won't lose their jobs when an airline has a major loss of revenue. The risk to airline employees is often much worse that to many stockholders, therefore I certainly disagree with any comments that stockholders(unless they are also airline employees) have the most to lose (in terms of a home, a child's education, or both) in a serious downturn and/or Chapter 11 filing.
One of the bigger questions is, how can s-o-m-e of the all-knowing "experts" assume that an airline could transform itself, almost overnight, into a 'Southwest-style operation', with multiple linear route structures, in contrast to the fortress hubs whereby most crews begin/finish trips from a few large airports etc? Southwest's routes were created over a span of twenty five years plus, and this was a result of very careful planning.
Unless I missed something in the early 80s, the employees were not the creators of these hub-and-spoke systems. Did present or previous upper mgmts not spend jillions of dollars to build and strengthen these hubs? Maybe US airline employees are also responsible for OPEC's decision recently to raise the price on oil...
Possibly a gift of fifty F-15 Es plus a free extra AWACS to the Israeli Self-Defense Force, as a planned result of any significant future increases, might be a deterrent for good old OPEC.
But in many cases (maybe hundreds or more), these folks won't lose their jobs when an airline has a major loss of revenue. The risk to airline employees is often much worse that to many stockholders, therefore I certainly disagree with any comments that stockholders(unless they are also airline employees) have the most to lose (in terms of a home, a child's education, or both) in a serious downturn and/or Chapter 11 filing.
One of the bigger questions is, how can s-o-m-e of the all-knowing "experts" assume that an airline could transform itself, almost overnight, into a 'Southwest-style operation', with multiple linear route structures, in contrast to the fortress hubs whereby most crews begin/finish trips from a few large airports etc? Southwest's routes were created over a span of twenty five years plus, and this was a result of very careful planning.
Unless I missed something in the early 80s, the employees were not the creators of these hub-and-spoke systems. Did present or previous upper mgmts not spend jillions of dollars to build and strengthen these hubs? Maybe US airline employees are also responsible for OPEC's decision recently to raise the price on oil...
Possibly a gift of fifty F-15 Es plus a free extra AWACS to the Israeli Self-Defense Force, as a planned result of any significant future increases, might be a deterrent for good old OPEC.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 12th Dec 2002 at 04:21.
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I recommend reading www.aviationplanning.com, the Boyd Group's website, for some insightful perspectives.
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I received the following as a e-mail today...rather interesting slant on this issue.
Labor Relationships May Realign United
CHICAGO (AP) - While United Airlines seeks protection from its creditors,
it also will need to secure the cooperation of its unions in order to emerge
successfully from Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
But relations between United and the 83,000 employees who own 55 percent of
the company have not always been easy. Two years ago, pilots and mechanics
caused thousands of flight delays and cancellations during stalled labor
negotiations. And two weeks ago, as the company desperately was trying to
avoid bankruptcy, mechanics rejected a plan to contribute $700 million in
wage concessions.
On Monday, everybody involved was saying the right thing about cooperation,
using the word "United'' as an attitude as well as an airline - but the
question remains: Will they work together?
"They better,'' said Aaron J. Gellman, a professor at Northwestern
University's Transportation Center. "Because if they don't, they run the
risk of going into Chapter 7, liquidation. If that happens, everybody
loses.''
Joseph Schwieterman, an aviation industry expert and economics professor at
DePaul University in Chicago, agreed. "The parallels with Eastern Airlines
are almost scary,'' he said, referring to the struggle between labor and
management more than a decade ago that helped drive that airline out of
business. "All United employees should read the history of Eastern
Airlines.''
One thing that may be history is an employee-owned United - something the
airline has long touted. CEO Glenn Tilton would not say whether he wants
the company's employee stock ownership program dissolved. "I think we're just
going to have to take that situation and manage it, deal with it
constructively as we go through the case,'' he said.
But Schwieterman said he believes the bankruptcy filing effectively brings
an end to the days of an employee-owned airline. "I think the idea of
employee ownership will have merely symbolic value,'' he said. "The real
money will probably belong to banks and others with deeper pockets.''
It is clear that labor costs will have to be cut. Nobody, though, is saying
how much.
United, while not getting specific, is suggesting that employees will have
to take a big hit. In its bankruptcy court filing, the company said the
only way to turn the airline around will be to "reduce their labor and other
costs dramatically.''
Gellman said the pilots in particular have to be prepared to slash their
costs. "My guess is they have to give much more than the $2.2 billion they
offered,'' he said.
Unions point to their recent proposals as evidence they are willing to cut
costs.
"Since the (terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001) we have worked with the
company, along with other unions at United, to produce an unprecedented
labor cost reduction package and out-of-court restructuring program for
United,'' said Paul Whiteford, chairman of the United unit of the Air Line
Pilots Association.
But it is also clear that the unions don't think their costs are to blame
for United's troubles. "Labor costs aren't the problem at United and other
carriers,'' said Jeff Zack of the Association of Flight Attendants. Poor
management decisions, including the attempted merger with US Airways, cost
them billions, he said.
Schwieterman said the unions that have wielded so much power in their
dealings with the company, might have finally met their match.
"Now they are facing a much more formidable rival, or adversary,'' he
said.
"The courts.''
*********
Labor Relationships May Realign United
CHICAGO (AP) - While United Airlines seeks protection from its creditors,
it also will need to secure the cooperation of its unions in order to emerge
successfully from Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
But relations between United and the 83,000 employees who own 55 percent of
the company have not always been easy. Two years ago, pilots and mechanics
caused thousands of flight delays and cancellations during stalled labor
negotiations. And two weeks ago, as the company desperately was trying to
avoid bankruptcy, mechanics rejected a plan to contribute $700 million in
wage concessions.
On Monday, everybody involved was saying the right thing about cooperation,
using the word "United'' as an attitude as well as an airline - but the
question remains: Will they work together?
"They better,'' said Aaron J. Gellman, a professor at Northwestern
University's Transportation Center. "Because if they don't, they run the
risk of going into Chapter 7, liquidation. If that happens, everybody
loses.''
Joseph Schwieterman, an aviation industry expert and economics professor at
DePaul University in Chicago, agreed. "The parallels with Eastern Airlines
are almost scary,'' he said, referring to the struggle between labor and
management more than a decade ago that helped drive that airline out of
business. "All United employees should read the history of Eastern
Airlines.''
One thing that may be history is an employee-owned United - something the
airline has long touted. CEO Glenn Tilton would not say whether he wants
the company's employee stock ownership program dissolved. "I think we're just
going to have to take that situation and manage it, deal with it
constructively as we go through the case,'' he said.
But Schwieterman said he believes the bankruptcy filing effectively brings
an end to the days of an employee-owned airline. "I think the idea of
employee ownership will have merely symbolic value,'' he said. "The real
money will probably belong to banks and others with deeper pockets.''
It is clear that labor costs will have to be cut. Nobody, though, is saying
how much.
United, while not getting specific, is suggesting that employees will have
to take a big hit. In its bankruptcy court filing, the company said the
only way to turn the airline around will be to "reduce their labor and other
costs dramatically.''
Gellman said the pilots in particular have to be prepared to slash their
costs. "My guess is they have to give much more than the $2.2 billion they
offered,'' he said.
Unions point to their recent proposals as evidence they are willing to cut
costs.
"Since the (terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001) we have worked with the
company, along with other unions at United, to produce an unprecedented
labor cost reduction package and out-of-court restructuring program for
United,'' said Paul Whiteford, chairman of the United unit of the Air Line
Pilots Association.
But it is also clear that the unions don't think their costs are to blame
for United's troubles. "Labor costs aren't the problem at United and other
carriers,'' said Jeff Zack of the Association of Flight Attendants. Poor
management decisions, including the attempted merger with US Airways, cost
them billions, he said.
Schwieterman said the unions that have wielded so much power in their
dealings with the company, might have finally met their match.
"Now they are facing a much more formidable rival, or adversary,'' he
said.
"The courts.''
*********
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Fartsock, A few FACTS to refute your claims about UA cabin crew pay. Averagy salary: USD 32,000. Average seniority: 12 years. To be making 32,000 after being employed for a company for that long- coming armed with (generally) a university degree and a vast majority of us with a second language is not (pre- bankruptcy) overpaid. Current financial situations of course require pay cuts (deep) which I for one will swallow to remain in a job which I love.
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UAL On Borrowed Time And Money
Juggernaut UAL with newly disclosed losses of $22+ Million per day is beyond the point of rescue. The company will run out of cash in two months. It's the end. Banks and institutional investors are pouring "debtor in possesion funds" into a bottomless pit. The company is in a deep stall, soon to be gone.
I had an arsehole transplant but the arsehole rejected me, which is why I write such rubbish
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You said it al GalleyWench
GalleyWench;
You said it all.
Average salary is 32K and yet senior pilots make over 250K a year.
No wonder with such a discreprancy the airline didn't survive.
Andy
You said it all.
Average salary is 32K and yet senior pilots make over 250K a year.
No wonder with such a discreprancy the airline didn't survive.
Andy
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Michael Boyd, of the Boyd Group www.aviationplanning.com has this to say.
"Weak Management Is More Expensive Than High Labor Rates. It's a failure of senior management that has engineered United into this quagmire, yet some people still blame labor for this circus."
and goes on...
"Actually, regardless of whether the IAM, the AFA, and ALPA were paid lavishly or with company scrip,the airline would still today be looking down the ugly barrel of bankruptcy. An airline needs tightly-focused management, and that's not exactly what's been going on at the top rungs at United over the past three years."
"Weak Management Is More Expensive Than High Labor Rates. It's a failure of senior management that has engineered United into this quagmire, yet some people still blame labor for this circus."
and goes on...
"Actually, regardless of whether the IAM, the AFA, and ALPA were paid lavishly or with company scrip,the airline would still today be looking down the ugly barrel of bankruptcy. An airline needs tightly-focused management, and that's not exactly what's been going on at the top rungs at United over the past three years."