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West Atlantic ATP runway excursion in Birmingham

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West Atlantic ATP runway excursion in Birmingham

Old 22nd Jun 2020, 12:38
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'Developed their AIRMANSHIP and handling skills to the full.'

Irrelevant to the HR desk-wallahs who recruit. They want 'our pilots' in the top 90% in verbal reasoning.

Most at fault are chief pilots, or DFOs or whatever guise they go under these days, who have become so spineless as to yield to HR departments which, of course, have the full support of the other 'humanities' graduates running airlines, for the recruitment of 'their' pilots; recruiters who wouldn't know one end of a 747 from the other.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 13:47
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Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
It's actually not a roller coaster, just compression of perspective from a long lens!
Originally Posted by Uplinker View Post
The hump at EGBB RWY15 is, or used to be, right at the point where you wanted to put the mains down, especially on a turbulent day.
The overall average runway slope (threshold-to-threshold) is a relatively modest 1.1% (0.6). But if the AIP is to be believed, the gradient between the final 15 TDZ marker and the intersection with the old cross runway is a whopping 6.8% (3.9).

So perhaps the roller-coaster description isn't that far off.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 13:56
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Manchester RW 23R has a down slope at an inconvenient point,
as does Carlisle RW 24.
Add Knock to the list; one long slope.

Something Threat & Error management briefing should mitigate?
Local knowledge can play a very useful part.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 18:19
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
The overall average runway slope (threshold-to-threshold) is a relatively modest 1.1% (0.6). But if the AIP is to be believed, the gradient between the final 15 TDZ marker and the intersection with the old cross runway is a whopping 6.8% (3.9).

So perhaps the roller-coaster description isn't that far off.

Yes it's a proper hill alright ! Much worse than the hump at EGCC. You actually have to 'drive' down the Birmingham one, otherwise you risk taking off again !
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 08:30
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Rwy 09 at Bristol gets my vote!

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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 11:15
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I see all your airports and raise you a landing at LBA in a gentle 12kt crosswind from 240' on rw32. Enjoy!
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 12:15
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The issue is not the bumps the runway, but the lumps in the air; wind, crosswind, gusts, and associated assumptions.
Either pilots are not experiencing a sufficient range of conditions or unable to relate training / experience to the real conditions, … or, … or,

It would be interesting to review the extent of experience, how many crosswind landings, against the depth of experience, how close to the 'limit' or range of gust intensity. Just because 15kts X was 'easy', then so too will be 30kts X with gusts; not so for every aircraft type. Every wind encounter is different, all situations must be treated as such.

Previous posts cited difficulties with simulators; many lack representative roll-yaw interaction and most do not have the ability to induce side-force, lateral acceleration - 'seat of the pants' feedback; yet we believe that they are sufficiently representative of the aircraft. Then there is the 'jump through the hoop' training; time for management / regulator to look at 'work as done', vice what they imagine.

Do First Officers get to fly a sufficient rage of conditions; or are they always limited to xx kts. How are they to generate experience; when do they see higher X winds - when they become Captain, and fly in limiting situations, without further experience.
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 13:12
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'DaveReidUK' - what was the interesting instrument you showed a couple of posts (of yours) back? Most intriguing!
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 14:24
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Originally Posted by RVF750 View Post
I see all your airports and raise you a landing at LBA in a gentle 12kt crosswind from 240' on rw32. Enjoy!
Ten years at LBA on the F27. 12 kts? That counts as flat calm up there
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 17:36
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With over 20 years at LBA on four different types, I will NEVER criticise any pilot's landing in a gusty cross-wind.
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 19:41
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Originally Posted by biscuit74 View Post
'DaveReidUK' - what was the interesting instrument you showed a couple of posts (of yours) back? Most intriguing!
Seen in action here: https://www.huntleyarchives.com/prev...?image=1090171
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 11:08
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fredthedog.

Advice on technique / procedure may be aircraft / manufacturer specific.

Note info below on takeoff, and discussion of alternatives; crab, de-crab, mixed, for crosswind landings.

Boeing info: http://www.smartcockpit.com/docs/Cro...Guidelines.pdf

Airbus info from testing: https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/app/t...tification.pdf

Joint A+B view of testing: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zq6lxugvoc...ation.pdf?dl=0


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Old 25th Jun 2020, 11:59
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The B737 FCTM allows touchdown with full crab up to max crosswind limits. It also goes on to suggest it is the more preferable technique on very slippery runways but its not recommended to use this technique on a dry runway at max crosswind (which incidentally is generally more in the FCTM than in operator's limitations).

It may well have been your trainers preferred crosswind technique but labelling them as clueless is a bit harsh.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 13:33
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I think it is the phrase "Kicking it straight" that some object to; nothing needs to be actually kicked.

However, yawing your aircraft to align with the runway as you flare is entirely sensible and desirable. as fredthedog says, it only takes a gentle movement of the rudder pedals to achieve this, coupled with slight into-wind wing down to counter any secondary roll.

Regarding SIMs, well OK they cannot reproduce all the forces one would experience, but they could still be used to practise the coordination of the crab-to-flare-to-yaw-straight manoeuvre.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 14:00
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Originally Posted by Stick Flying View Post
The B737 FCTM allows touchdown with full crab up to max crosswind limits. It also goes on to suggest it is the more preferable technique on very slippery runways but its not recommended to use this technique on a dry runway at max crosswind (which incidentally is generally more in the FCTM than in operator's limitations).
.
Yes, not recommended for dry runways. Besides, on any aeroplane, it makes for a lurching, squirrelly arrival with results such as seen here - and the Emirates 380 which recently just planted it in sideways, didn't exactly make themselves popular with the training dept.

I'd agree - nothing wrong with"kicking it straight" (meaning aligning with the runway using rudder keeping wings level) ... But it requires perfect timing, just before the mains touch. More often I see the rudder go in too early, they float, and the airplane quickly starts drifting towards the downwind edge of the runway, and it gets messy from there

Last edited by Time Traveller; 25th Jun 2020 at 14:15.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 14:26
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Originally Posted by Time Traveller View Post
More often I see the rudder go in too early, they float, and the airplane quickly starts drifting towards the downwind edge of the runway, and it gets messy from there
And that is one reason why Boeing recommend crab landings on very slippery runways. The important thing is to keep the direction of travel straight along the runway and plan for a firm landing on both mainwheels at the same time.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 19:58
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shhh! you shouldn't be telling the great unwashed that secret!
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Old 2nd Jul 2020, 13:26
  #98 (permalink)  

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AAIB

The AAIB have today confirmed that this event is under investigation ~ 2 July website update.
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