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West Atlantic ATP runway excursion in Birmingham

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West Atlantic ATP runway excursion in Birmingham

Old 22nd Jun 2020, 03:19
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wondering
Is it so difficult to build a level runway instead of this roller coaster?
Is it really so difficult to land on this roller coaster? It's actually not a roller coaster, just compression of perspective from a long lens!
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 06:41
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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My lament too, is that most airline pilots these days don't get intensive instruction or screening for handling techniques, and there are some truly abysmal examples out there. This video doesn't surprise me at all - in fact I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often!
Never a truer word. Normal simulator sessions per handling pilot is two hours per session. Two pilots means four hours including break for changeover/coffee. Landing any aircraft consistently safely at its maximum cross-wind component requires considerable handling skill. A pilot doesn't achieve that sort of skill with just one or two a couple of practice landings in the simulator.

There are too many instances of box ticking after two crosswind landings and then moving on to something else. For example, at the beginning of the simulator session ask the simulator instructor to hop in the seat and first demonstrate a max crosswind landing. A picture is worth a thousand words. Chances are he will ignore your request with a weak excuse that he suddenly has a sore toe or something. Not many simulator instructors are game enough to chance their arm by demonstrating.

Some may argue the simulator is nothing like the real aircraft in crosswind landings and therefore simulator practice on crosswind landings is a waste of time and could even be negative training whatever that may be. In that case, either the full flight simulator lacks fidelity which may be a maintenance problem, or someone doesn't know what he is talking about. Lack of knowledge by simulator technicians is a common problem and this can impact upon the fidelity of simulators.

A new pilot to type needs lots of handling practice. This includes crosswind takeoffs and landing in strong crosswinds. This is not a fun exercise thrown in only if time permits. One cost efficient method is to place the simulator at five miles final with the crosswind already set.at maximum.and all landing checks complete. Forget standard calls since a squawking nervous copilot unnecessarily rattling out "Speed" "Speed" "Track Track Track" is more of a hindrance to a new pilot than a help. Remember it is a training exercise not a test and the instructor needs to use common sense rather than play at back seat driving. Silence is golden in these situations. Remember though, the silence no talking policy is purely for the sake of the training exercise in the simulator and not necessarily the norm in real life. .

An average new to type pilot will need at least ten practice maximum component crosswind landings from five miles before he is confident enough to get the hang of things. It is the flare and touch down technique the student needs to get a handle on. Again, for the purpose of the exercise, there is no pressing need for the full roll-out to aircraft stopped. That comes later once the student is both competent and confident he can do a reasonably good job of the landing itself.

Once the nose-wheel is on the ground and the pilot has things under immediate control, there is nothing wrong with the simulator instructor freezing or pausing the simulator to discuss pertinent points of handling. Only then should the instructor re-position the simulator to five mile final once more and repeat the exercise.

If time is critical, repositioning for a one mile final may be necessary. Don't forget to change the crosswind to the other side once the student is reasonably competent. Once the student is confident with day max crosswind landings, then night crosswind landings should also be practiced.

Depending on the students progress, the simulator instructor may need to spend 40 minutes or more on this exercise before the student is confident he can hack it consistently well. But it is important that the PM is briefed to keep his mouth shut throughout this training and leave the simulator instructor to add his bit where needed.

Last edited by Judd; 22nd Jun 2020 at 07:05.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 07:25
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Good post, Judd, agree with all your points. A lot of basic flying control needs to be learned by doing. Having people constantly talking at you is a distraction - let the student just fly and get the hang of it. Nobody would expect an orchestra flute player to go through a piece of music twice with an instructor prompting them, and then be able to play it well in front of an audience. They would need practice. The SIM is a safe place to practice the basic technique and coordination, followed by some crosswind landings in the real plane.

I spent about 3 years flying turboprops (including at EGBB), and really got my crosswind landing technique sorted, which helped when I transferred onto big jets.

Transport policy in the UK is woeful. First we had Beeching rip up most of the train branch lines. Now we still have airports with no train links - at Edinburgh for example there is a double train line running past about a mile from the end of RWY24, but no rail link to the actual airport ! Forget HS2, let's get the basics sorted first.

The hump at EGBB RWY15 is, or used to be, right at the point where you wanted to put the mains down, especially on a turbulent day. So you had to land spot on, or late, or ride the hump as you were flaring. Not a massive problem, but a significant one and something you could do without on some tricky days !

The HR method of recruitment by testing your mental maths and verbal reasoning etc - that we all have to endure these days to get a flying job - is not much use if someone doesn't actually know how to fly in the first place !
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 08:01
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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When you operate in northwestern europe, you are guaranteed to encounter high winds somewhere during any given year. Scandinavia, the Benelux, Britain/Ireland are all In the middle of wind paradise.
You grow up with it, and you fly in wind a lot. It becomes easier if you know what you are doing.
I have landed at Amsterdam in gale force winds. On several occasions we had so much wind that my windshield was dirty after landing due to salt residue. Caused by sea water sprayed up from the north sea!
30 knots crosswind is nothing to worry about. If you cant handle 30 knots, get some training. It isn’t even the max limit.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 09:48
  #85 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by fox niner View Post
..........Britain/Ireland are all In the middle of wind paradise.
You grow up with it, and you fly in wind a lot. It becomes easier if you know what you are doing.....
Although Prestwick remains a distinct challenge flying single engined ac in the winter months, the overall experience gained by students undertaking CPL/IR training with BAeFC last century was second to none where crosswinds occurred most of the time.

Probably the best UK location for twin engined flying with multiple routes and airports to visit. It would not be uncommon for an IRT candidate on TEST to be flying an approach not previously flown in the ac for the first time.
The overall training experience prepared the student for such a situation.

Developed their AIRMANSHIP and handling skills to the full.

In the UK you need to get north of 5430’N to get the real value of training. Contentious moi?

Last edited by parkfell; 22nd Jun 2020 at 10:10.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 11:38
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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'Developed their AIRMANSHIP and handling skills to the full.'

Irrelevant to the HR desk-wallahs who recruit. They want 'our pilots' in the top 90% in verbal reasoning.

Most at fault are chief pilots, or DFOs or whatever guise they go under these days, who have become so spineless as to yield to HR departments which, of course, have the full support of the other 'humanities' graduates running airlines, for the recruitment of 'their' pilots; recruiters who wouldn't know one end of a 747 from the other.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 12:47
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
It's actually not a roller coaster, just compression of perspective from a long lens!
Originally Posted by Uplinker View Post
The hump at EGBB RWY15 is, or used to be, right at the point where you wanted to put the mains down, especially on a turbulent day.
The overall average runway slope (threshold-to-threshold) is a relatively modest 1.1% (0.6). But if the AIP is to be believed, the gradient between the final 15 TDZ marker and the intersection with the old cross runway is a whopping 6.8% (3.9).

So perhaps the roller-coaster description isn't that far off.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 12:56
  #88 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
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Manchester RW 23R has a down slope at an inconvenient point,
as does Carlisle RW 24.
Add Knock to the list; one long slope.

Something Threat & Error management briefing should mitigate?
Local knowledge can play a very useful part.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 17:19
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
The overall average runway slope (threshold-to-threshold) is a relatively modest 1.1% (0.6). But if the AIP is to be believed, the gradient between the final 15 TDZ marker and the intersection with the old cross runway is a whopping 6.8% (3.9).

So perhaps the roller-coaster description isn't that far off.

Yes it's a proper hill alright ! Much worse than the hump at EGCC. You actually have to 'drive' down the Birmingham one, otherwise you risk taking off again !
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 07:30
  #90 (permalink)  
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Rwy 09 at Bristol gets my vote!

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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 09:34
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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If BHX was located in France or Germany the gov't would have cleared the built-up area to the southwest and extended the runway to 3000m or so. Or - more likely - built a new airport.
You might be right, but try Luxembourg for a slope!
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 10:15
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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I see all your airports and raise you a landing at LBA in a gentle 12kt crosswind from 240' on rw32. Enjoy!
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 11:15
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The issue is not the bumps the runway, but the lumps in the air; wind, crosswind, gusts, and associated assumptions.
Either pilots are not experiencing a sufficient range of conditions or unable to relate training / experience to the real conditions, … or, … or,

It would be interesting to review the extent of experience, how many crosswind landings, against the depth of experience, how close to the 'limit' or range of gust intensity. Just because 15kts X was 'easy', then so too will be 30kts X with gusts; not so for every aircraft type. Every wind encounter is different, all situations must be treated as such.

Previous posts cited difficulties with simulators; many lack representative roll-yaw interaction and most do not have the ability to induce side-force, lateral acceleration - 'seat of the pants' feedback; yet we believe that they are sufficiently representative of the aircraft. Then there is the 'jump through the hoop' training; time for management / regulator to look at 'work as done', vice what they imagine.

Do First Officers get to fly a sufficient rage of conditions; or are they always limited to xx kts. How are they to generate experience; when do they see higher X winds - when they become Captain, and fly in limiting situations, without further experience.
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 12:12
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'DaveReidUK' - what was the interesting instrument you showed a couple of posts (of yours) back? Most intriguing!
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 13:24
  #95 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by RVF750 View Post
I see all your airports and raise you a landing at LBA in a gentle 12kt crosswind from 240' on rw32. Enjoy!
Ten years at LBA on the F27. 12 kts? That counts as flat calm up there
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 16:36
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With over 20 years at LBA on four different types, I will NEVER criticise any pilot's landing in a gusty cross-wind.
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 18:41
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Originally Posted by biscuit74 View Post
'DaveReidUK' - what was the interesting instrument you showed a couple of posts (of yours) back? Most intriguing!
Seen in action here: https://www.huntleyarchives.com/prev...?image=1090171
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 08:39
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone suggesting you shouldn’t kick your aircraft straight for landing is utterly clueless. I remember once landing in 30ish kts at LBA in a 737 and the trainer in the right seat berated me for kicking straight for landing. By feeding in smooth progressive rudder and equal into wind aileron I achieved a smooth touchdown bang on the centreline on both main gear. To this day I don’t have the slightest idea what that idiot was talking about.

Probably not relevant but he was ex RAF so made his lack of knowledge even more confusing.

Who knows what happened to this crew but I can guarantee neither of them woke up and thought “today is a great day to have a runway excursion” so probably best to await the facts to emerge before we condemn.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 10:08
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fredthedog.

Advice on technique / procedure may be aircraft / manufacturer specific.

Note info below on takeoff, and discussion of alternatives; crab, de-crab, mixed, for crosswind landings.

Boeing info: http://www.smartcockpit.com/docs/Cro...Guidelines.pdf

Airbus info from testing: https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/app/t...tification.pdf

Joint A+B view of testing: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zq6lxugvoc...ation.pdf?dl=0


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Old 25th Jun 2020, 10:59
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The B737 FCTM allows touchdown with full crab up to max crosswind limits. It also goes on to suggest it is the more preferable technique on very slippery runways but its not recommended to use this technique on a dry runway at max crosswind (which incidentally is generally more in the FCTM than in operator's limitations).

It may well have been your trainers preferred crosswind technique but labelling them as clueless is a bit harsh.
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