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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 25th Jun 2020, 16:50
  #1381 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pattern_is_full View Post
I would point out that in climbing away after the runway scrapes, the same crew briefly lowered the gear (before quickly raising it yet again)
The report does not say that. They did flick the lever down, and then quickly up again. Nowhere does it say that the L/G went down and then up again.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 16:53
  #1382 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pattern_is_full View Post
Lonewolf - you're trying to assume a rational reason for raising the gear again.
Actually, I am looking at a possible 'common mistake seen in the sims / knobology' explanation for bringing the gear up - because they had previously lowered it and they were heading in to land (even though they are going too fast), which is rational - so that is why I asked that bit at the end.

I do not disagree with you at all that they did not seem to have their heads in the game, and that the crew coordination was probably either poor or missing.

It is like seeking a rational reason why a trained pilot would hold an aircraft in a stall for 38, 000 feet (AF447).
I have a rational reason for the RH pilot, based on teaching instruments for a few years.
He had a poor scan (perhaps due to being a child of the magenta line, or perhaps just due to no recency/currency of him flying instruments rather than letting HAL fly for him) and it broke down quickly to where he had no scan. Seen it happen plenty, in aircraft and in sims, and it happened to me a few times.

But between him and the left hand pilot, yeah, you are right. It hardly seems rational.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 17:03
  #1383 (permalink)  
 
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I hear what you’re saying about a scan, but day VMC...Doesn’t take much to see they’d never make it.

We still don’t know who was flying, btw.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 17:19
  #1384 (permalink)  
 
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Last 30mts they got into the discussion about the pandemic. So missing TOD during that not surprising. The discussion continued. So when the enormity of the situation dawned on them they gotinto panic. Considering the fatigue and low blood sugar it could have led to hyperventilation. Then any irrational acts are possible.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 17:20
  #1385 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
Actually, I am looking at a possible 'common mistake seen in the sims / knobology' explanation for bringing the gear up - because they had previously lowered it and they were heading in to land (even though they are going too fast), which is rational - so that is why I asked that bit at the end.
I suggested that possibility in post 401 PIA A320 Crash Karachi
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 17:50
  #1386 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mick Stability View Post
There is absolutely nothing in this data to show that an average qualified crew in the circumstances on the day, could not be be expected to recognize the gravity of the situation, respond to it, mitigate the trajectory, and take action to correct the flightpath in an expeditious and controlled manner, in such a way as to achieve a safe outcome on a subsequent planned, controlled, and routinely executed approach and landing, within safe parameters and the within normal limits of the manufacturer's standard operating guidance.

So I think we can agree the aircraft was grossly mishandled to a degree that barely lies within the definition of the phrase.

We must ask therefore, what administrative organization allowed two such individuals to occupy the flight deck of a public transport aeroplane in which any one of our loved ones might have been a passenger?
If Air France crew can do it, PIA crew can do it. Do you stop your loved ones flying Air France, or Swiss, or any multitude of US carriers where crew have done the unbeleivable to the detriment of their passengers?

We must wait for the final report to find out what put the crew in a position that led to an expedited descent well after TOD, what were the pressures inside that cockpit that led an historically competent crew to mess up so badly.

The Air France crew were not fasting, as far as we know did not "fake" their qualifications, and were not subject to what has been referred to on this thread as "cultural differences". Yet they too crashed a perfectly airworthy aircraft in a manner that would have the FlightSim brigade on here shaking their heads in disbelief.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 18:19
  #1387 (permalink)  
 
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what did Swiss do?
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 18:31
  #1388 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by asdf1234 View Post
If Air France crew can do it, PIA crew can do it.
The former had many complex issues, CRM, automation, crew training (i.e. high altitude upset recovery for one) all coming together, the PIA crash seems on the face of it downright absolute negligence. There is a a huge difference.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 18:40
  #1389 (permalink)  
 
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Not forgetting attempts to blame ATC, in the hopes that something sticks and diverts attention from the primary/sole cause of the tragedy.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 19:01
  #1390 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Twitter View Post
what did Swiss do?
Swissair 316 in Athens 1979, I suppose:

The accident investigation determined the causes of the accident were that the crew touched down too far down the runway, at too high a speed, following a non-stabilised approach, and that they failed to properly utilise the aircraft's brake and reverse thrust systems, which resulted in their being unable to stop the aircraft within the available runway and overrun distance.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 21:38
  #1391 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Euclideanplane View Post
Swissair 316 in Athens 1979, I suppose:

The accident investigation determined the causes of the accident were that the crew touched down too far down the runway, at too high a speed, following a non-stabilised approach, and that they failed to properly utilise the aircraft's brake and reverse thrust systems, which resulted in their being unable to stop the aircraft within the available runway and overrun distance.
Not really. I was thinking more of the Crossair (to become Swiss) near Kloten in 2001 when all CRM was noticeable by its absence and the Swiss MD-11 loss where the crew were 66 miles from a usable airfield but elected to turn back to an airfield 300nm distant.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 21:45
  #1392 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flash8 View Post
The former had many complex issues, CRM, automation, crew training (i.e. high altitude upset recovery for one) all coming together, the PIA crash seems on the face of it downright absolute negligence. There is a a huge difference.
The first rule of aviation safety is to accept human beings can only be relied upon to do 2 things consistently whilst alive; they breathe and they make mistakes. The aim of the accident investigation is to determine why the mistakes happened. Nobody intentionally crashes an aircraft (and yes I know the obvious exceptions - Egypt Air, 9/11, German Wings, Malaysian, etc. ). We know what the crew did in this accident, to prevent further such accidents we need to know why. Saying they were negligent just doesn't help advance our knowledge on how to improve aviation safety.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 01:41
  #1393 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by asdf1234 View Post
and the Swiss MD-11 loss where the crew were 66 miles from a usable airfield but elected to turn back to an airfield 300nm distant.
Not true at all. Read the report, especially with regard to the timeline from just before the "Pan Pan Pan" call until the turn to Halifax. Then read the transcript, from 1:14 to 1:16 UTC.
I suggest you do some research before posting something that casts aspersions on the crew that died in that accident. We all make mistakes and we should all learn from the mistakes of others but in this case your comment is incredibly disrespectful -- because it's false.

Last edited by grizzled; 26th Jun 2020 at 02:24.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 03:13
  #1394 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Twitter View Post
what did Swiss do?
Swiss Air 111
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 04:32
  #1395 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by asdf1234
what were the pressures inside that cockpit that led an historically competent crew to mess up so badly.
Who says they were 'historically competent'? Their own dodgy TRE mates?

Really no point in defending the outright indefensible here
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 04:51
  #1396 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by grizzled View Post
Not true at all. Read the report, especially with regard to the timeline from just before the "Pan Pan Pan" call until the turn to Halifax. Then read the transcript, from 1:14 to 1:16 UTC.
I suggest you do some research before posting something that casts aspersions on the crew that died in that accident. We all make mistakes and we should all learn from the mistakes of others but in this case your comment is incredibly disrespectful -- because it's false.
The point I was making is that western airlines also get things wrong and my comments about the Swiss MD11 were overly simplistic. I haven't read the report in a very long time, but from memory they first elected to turn back and subsequently accepted the nearer Halifax but didn't make it as they were dumping fuel to avoid an overweight landing. The lessons to learn were multiple including the use of flammable materials in aircraft and cockpit smoke procedures. The crew were certainly dealt a bum hand that day as the followed the checklists. All of this is thread creep. The final report will identify why the PIA crew got it so badly wrong just as the final reports in the Cross Air, Air France and Swiss 111 pointed out what went wrong.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 06:00
  #1397 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AfricanSkies View Post
These pilots were either drunk, or;

This flying culture is so ingrained at PIA that both of them were completely comfortable with it (as they actually stated), and had got away with such behaviour on a regular basis in the past. From which you can probably deduce that other pilots at PIA behave in a similar fashion, on a regular basis.
Exactly. Everything about this extraordinary performance defies logic, reason and common sense. It was a deviation so far from normal it had to be deliberate, and almost certainly agreed to or at least uncontested by the pilot not flying. Whatever the intent, this otherwise perfectly airworthy airplane ended up where it did because two competent, experienced pilots put it there.

Last edited by ferry pilot; 26th Jun 2020 at 06:02. Reason: format
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 08:00
  #1398 (permalink)  
 
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The time frame of inquiry report of two years onwards makes it meaningless. Because during such a long period some other incident/accident takes place and the focus shifts. Till the full report considering all dimensions and factors is out on what basis the operator will change operating or maintenance practices? Do other non involved airlines ever get to know what happened some years back in another corner of the earth? In two years time after the dust is settled the world moves on.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 08:50
  #1399 (permalink)  
 
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You only have to take a look at some of the videos on YouTube filmed from the flight deck to see practices that should scare the living daylights out of you as a passenger.

I feel there must be something more to this than poor decision making and ropey CRM. Awaiting the final report with interest.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 08:51
  #1400 (permalink)  
 
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PIA have been banned internationally before and following their own government's highlighting of forged licences and other problems I would be surprised if this is not being currently considered. As far as learning points go, this crew appear to have displayed a level of competence of someone playing flight simulator for the first time. So I am not sure how relevant it is. The tragedy is that they were so close to the airport in the final moments. Had they lowered the gear later they might just have made it. But given the rest of their performance it is hardly surprising that they did not.
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