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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 24th Jun 2020, 18:21
  #1321 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
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Originally Posted by homebuilt View Post
...... Or only the captain was unfit, and the FO was a ‘‘yes sir’’ robotic monkey, which is often an occurence in this part of the world.
My money is on an “abnormality of the mind” for the Captain caused by deficiencies in the chemical/electrical pathways.
As for the FO.......”Cultural compliance” with the SKYGOD.

The toxicology/ blood sugar / dehydration etc etc might prove interesting.
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 19:18
  #1322 (permalink)  
 
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Joining some dots .. ... ...

Originally Posted by Nightstop View Post
A cabin crew member doesn’t need to be in the flightdeck to pass on important information to the pilots. CRM extends throughout the Crew, from most junior to the most Senior. Perhaps the Minister was alluding to the fact that the cabin crew didn’t communicate important information to the flightdeck after the gear up go around? On the other hand, perhaps you’re right..he doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about.
Somewhere in the previous 67 or so pages, the question was asked whether the flight deck would have been aware of the runway scrape, perhaps this is not so far fetched as it may sound.
They are sitting a good distance ahead of the engines, they SHOULD be wearing headsets and the various audio warnings etc. have been widely referred to elsewhere.

Information such as this is not usually included in a preliminary report, or a brief pertaining to that report, unless there is a line of enquiry open.
Certainly, the cabin crew should be on the interphone pdq if they had heard the scrape, and or seen the sparks, on the flip side, they are trained to not be over insistent with the emergency call button at a time that they believe the flight crew may be extremely busy, perhaps dealing with the very thing they are about to report.
Perhaps the question is whether that call was actually made.

On the gear and speedbrake question: for that we will definitely have to await the CVR information, but it does seem to fit in terms of timeframe with the idea that one crew member had reason to believe that the approach was being discontinued.

Just observations obviously, and we await further.

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Old 24th Jun 2020, 19:51
  #1323 (permalink)  
 
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Teddy Robinson

By the time the call would have been made they were up in the air again, so what‘s the point?
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 20:16
  #1324 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
BTW, again no first hand knowledge, but I'd be a bit surprised if the A320 RAT has electrical power generation capability (at most a simple PMA dedicated to the FBW). For all engine out, most aircraft depend entirely on the battery to power the critical electrical systems. Adding anything to the battery load pretty much requires an act of god - battery power is simply to precious.
On the 320, the RAT can be used to power a backup generator via a hydraulic pump.
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 20:17
  #1325 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bici View Post
Quick question to Airbus guys.

Flight crew applied reverse engine power and initiated a braking action

Don't you have to get WOW first to be able to do that?
Very interesting. Never thought of that.
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 20:24
  #1326 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by derjodel View Post
By the time the call would have been made they were up in the air again, so what‘s the point?
Because that is what they are trained to do, report anything unusual.
With the aircraft going around in this instance at least, they are certainly not going to prevent the final outcome, but in a different set of circumstances, a tail strike for example, they would be expected to report what they had either seen or heard.

Would any cabin crew browsing this forum care to comment ?
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 20:25
  #1327 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Maninthebar View Post
The raising of the gear and stowing of the speedbrake comes shortly after the last 'offer' of an orbit by Approach Control - is there a possibility that one crew 'accepted' this and the other pressed on? How do you make sense of any of this?
I think you're onto something here. The CVR should shine the light.

Flaps 1 were selected at 243 knots IAS, the landing gears and speed brakes were retracted. Over-speed and EGPWS warnings were then triggered.
The PM prepared the plane for a go around. Seems the PF wasn't in the loop here. Then later, I think somebody went to retract the gear as part of the climb from the runway.

FDR recording indicates a brief action of selection of landing gear lever to down position, which was immediately followed by its movement to up position.
I'd like to think that this was the "oh " moment when it all came together in the mind of that person. Tunnel vision has been mentioned. I can see one person suffering from tunnel vision, but for both pilots to simultaneously lose the big picture?
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 21:01
  #1328 (permalink)  
 
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Someone mentioned that in order to force the other pilot to make a go-around, you can select the gear to up as a last resort. No-one was deemed so insane that they would press on with a retracted gear and try to land.
Well, it seems we have a case here where they did exactly this...
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 21:21
  #1329 (permalink)  
 
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Is it not possible to take over and lock out the other pilot's sidestick by holding the red AP disconnect button on the sidestick?
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 21:29
  #1330 (permalink)  
 
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That's correct... It's done with the priority take over button on the side stick...

However, I found that the majority of pilots I encounter in the Airbus, have no clue how that 'feature' really works...

Last edited by learner001; 24th Jun 2020 at 21:42.
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 22:39
  #1331 (permalink)  
 
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Simply put:

CVR are just the lines to the mike's... Easy...
FDR has connectionst to many other (affected) systems... NOT so easy...
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 22:39
  #1332 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SquintyMagoo View Post
For God's sake, why don't the recorders have a battery back-up to prevent their stopping when the
engines go off for some reason. Much valuable information has been lost in many cases because
the recorders shut off due to engine fallure.
As somebody posted earlier, you need to run a lot of systems for the FDR to get the entire set of data. Not all of these systems are critical for operation under emergency electrical configuration.
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 22:50
  #1333 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah... Let's redesign the system and have a battery back up for the recorder.
Pity all the sensors feeding it information also stopped working at the same time so there is nothing to record..
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 22:52
  #1334 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry all, I see my battery question was answered earlier and I have since deleted it.
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 22:58
  #1335 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Terry Dactil View Post
Yeah... Let's redesign the system and have a battery back up for the recorder.
Pity all the sensors feeding it information also stopped working at the same time so there is nothing to record..
No need to be harsh. I'll admit that I assumed the FDR ran until the end of the flight. Until tdracer gave his explanation, I hadn't considered the complexity associated.

At the same time, the FCOM says the FDR runs in flight regardless of the engine status.

Last edited by Check Airman; 24th Jun 2020 at 23:12.
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 23:19
  #1336 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bici View Post
Quick question to Airbus guys.

Flight crew applied reverse engine power and initiated a braking action

Don't you have to get WOW first to be able to do that?
No Wow switch required to manipulate the throttles towards reverse or apply pressure to the toe brakes. The FDR would record the control inputs.
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 23:22
  #1337 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by metro301 View Post
No Wow switch required to manipulate the throttles towards reverse or apply pressure to the toe brakes. The FDR would record the control inputs.
On looking at the logic diagram in the FCOM, I was surprised to see that you can move the reverse levers while airborne. Assuming I'm reading it properly...
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 23:30
  #1338 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Check Airman View Post
On looking at the logic diagram in the FCOM, I was surprised to see that you can move the reverse levers while airborne. Assuming I'm reading it properly...
You are reading correct.
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 23:40
  #1339 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by metro301 View Post
You are reading correct.
But the reversers won't activate until weight on wheels?
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 23:56
  #1340 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Winemaker View Post
But the reversers won't activate until weight on wheels?
Exactly...
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