14 day quarantine
This is a classic case of closing the gate after the horse has bolted. Mentioned above, this should have been the rule 3 months ago.
Oh wait, they were on the ball 3 months ago. Pax from fights from the epicentre, were given written instructions for what to do in the event they felt unwell. Then sent on their way. I pressume this was advice from WHO, as well as clowns here.
If this is how the academics function, God help us all.
I weep and have wepted in despiir since.
God give me strenght to endure this.
Oh wait, they were on the ball 3 months ago. Pax from fights from the epicentre, were given written instructions for what to do in the event they felt unwell. Then sent on their way. I pressume this was advice from WHO, as well as clowns here.
If this is how the academics function, God help us all.
I weep and have wepted in despiir since.
God give me strenght to endure this.
Last edited by Dan_Brown; 9th May 2020 at 13:36.
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Unfortunately, everyone in this crisis is behaving exactly true to form. Authoritarian governments tighten the screw even harder. And expect to be praised for doing so. Greens want to shut down all post-industrial revolution activity. And little bad-tempered red-faced men who dislike people using public footpaths near them now pretend to be supporting the NHS!
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There's also another side to the problem. How many countries grant admission to arrivals from the UK now, bar their own nationals who are mandated to quarantine after arrival from the UK? I can think of a good few who don't let in anyone other then their nationals, let alone arrivals from what sadly became one of the countries with the worst epidemic profile in Europe.
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Unfortunately, everyone in this crisis is behaving exactly true to form. Authoritarian governments tighten the screw even harder. And expect to be praised for doing so. Greens want to shut down all post-industrial revolution activity. And little bad-tempered red-faced men who dislike people using public footpaths near them now pretend to be supporting the NHS!
I can figure why the UK government didn't do the right thing and restrict aviation travel sooner. But that was a big decision and and hindsight makes it simpler to judge that now. The public take the blame too - they would have been an outcry from those wanting travel in January and February. The media would have had a field day.
What I can't figure is why borders were not seen as a control point when the public lockdown commenced. It seems illogical not to have introduced stronger authorative controls at that time.
Having persuaded the UK public to generally comply with the lockdown, to shatter the economy, and sink many futures then it wouild be irresponsible *NOT* to put in some fairly heavy border enforcement as part of the overall controls that will be needed to catch and stop a second wave.
The aviation industry is in tatters. The public may not want to fly. It's not clear that they wlll be willing to fly domestically or use long distance public transport to the extent they were used to before the lockdown. If that's the case then the demand for international travle will surely be no better. Given the shift in economics both at the supply end and consumer end the public may not be able to afford to fly.
But worse it has to be mindful that history may become quite brutal - aviation as a sector may get the blame. Any airline CEO complaining about government international travel restrictions has to bear in mind that the governments they are lobbying are carrying the can for 10's of thousands (and counting) of excess deaths. The silent majority of the public may direct their wrath at more than just their governments. The story may get turned into an accusation that the aviation sector was selfishly responsible for spreading the disease that killed peoples jobs and futures along with huge numbers of actual mortalities. So railing against these quarantine restructions may well provoke a damaging response.
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Wow.
Does anyone actually know what a quarantine is?
Close your borders to non-citizens/non-residents. 14 day quarantine, enforced, for those repatriated.
Get on top of this thing while you can. At any point this could take a turn for the worse. Or not. Feel lucky?
"The second wave of the 1918 pandemic was much more deadly than the first. The first wave had resembled typical flu epidemics; those most at risk were the sick and elderly, while younger, healthier people recovered easily. By August, when the second wave began in France, Sierra Leone, and the United States, the virus had mutated to a much more deadly form. October 1918 was the month with the highest fatality rate of the whole pandemic"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu
Anyone banging on about "herd immunity" is being economical with the facts. It might work - if it does not mutate. Want to make the call that it won't?
Good luck and stay safe.
Does anyone actually know what a quarantine is?
Close your borders to non-citizens/non-residents. 14 day quarantine, enforced, for those repatriated.
Get on top of this thing while you can. At any point this could take a turn for the worse. Or not. Feel lucky?
"The second wave of the 1918 pandemic was much more deadly than the first. The first wave had resembled typical flu epidemics; those most at risk were the sick and elderly, while younger, healthier people recovered easily. By August, when the second wave began in France, Sierra Leone, and the United States, the virus had mutated to a much more deadly form. October 1918 was the month with the highest fatality rate of the whole pandemic"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu
Anyone banging on about "herd immunity" is being economical with the facts. It might work - if it does not mutate. Want to make the call that it won't?
Good luck and stay safe.
With respect, how do you enforce a quarantine on a stag party returning from Alicante??
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Wow.
Does anyone actually know what a quarantine is?
Close your borders to non-citizens/non-residents. 14 day quarantine, enforced, for those repatriated.
Get on top of this thing while you can. At any point this could take a turn for the worse. Or not. Feel lucky?
"The second wave of the 1918 pandemic was much more deadly than the first. The first wave had resembled typical flu epidemics; those most at risk were the sick and elderly, while younger, healthier people recovered easily. By August, when the second wave began in France, Sierra Leone, and the United States, the virus had mutated to a much more deadly form. October 1918 was the month with the highest fatality rate of the whole pandemic"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu
Anyone banging on about "herd immunity" is being economical with the facts. It might work - if it does not mutate. Want to make the call that it won't?
Good luck and stay safe.
Does anyone actually know what a quarantine is?
Close your borders to non-citizens/non-residents. 14 day quarantine, enforced, for those repatriated.
Get on top of this thing while you can. At any point this could take a turn for the worse. Or not. Feel lucky?
"The second wave of the 1918 pandemic was much more deadly than the first. The first wave had resembled typical flu epidemics; those most at risk were the sick and elderly, while younger, healthier people recovered easily. By August, when the second wave began in France, Sierra Leone, and the United States, the virus had mutated to a much more deadly form. October 1918 was the month with the highest fatality rate of the whole pandemic"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu
Anyone banging on about "herd immunity" is being economical with the facts. It might work - if it does not mutate. Want to make the call that it won't?
Good luck and stay safe.
N4790P
Antonov225 it may well be you that is wrong. There are many similarities with 1918 including the cytokine response. Both were / are epidemics of nosocomial pathogens with much common epidemiology
The issue over what to do now is that the UK Goverment is applying the official secrets act to the science as are the Chinese so we cannot see, test, question or develop the facts. I search in vain for a precedent except in the military field.
Clearly they did too little too late and can't admit it, now finding themselves in an unenviable situation where they are clutching at straws and denying scientists save a handful of mostly civil servants the ability to help
Closing borders was necessary in January. It would still help but unsupervised isolation against an inability to track and trace the current possible 30000 new cases a day is just window dresing
The issue over what to do now is that the UK Goverment is applying the official secrets act to the science as are the Chinese so we cannot see, test, question or develop the facts. I search in vain for a precedent except in the military field.
Clearly they did too little too late and can't admit it, now finding themselves in an unenviable situation where they are clutching at straws and denying scientists save a handful of mostly civil servants the ability to help
Closing borders was necessary in January. It would still help but unsupervised isolation against an inability to track and trace the current possible 30000 new cases a day is just window dresing
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Antonov225 it may well be you that is wrong. There are many similarities with 1918 including the cytokine response. Both were / are epidemics of nosocomial pathogens with much common epidemiology
The issue over what to do now is that the UK Goverment is applying the official secrets act to the science as are the Chinese so we cannot see, test, question or develop the facts. I search in vain for a precedent except in the military field.
Clearly they did too little too late and can't admit it, now finding themselves in an unenviable situation where they are clutching at straws and denying scientists save a handful of mostly civil servants the ability to help
Closing borders was necessary in January. It would still help but unsupervised isolation against an inability to track and trace the current possible 30000 new cases a day is just window dresing
The issue over what to do now is that the UK Goverment is applying the official secrets act to the science as are the Chinese so we cannot see, test, question or develop the facts. I search in vain for a precedent except in the military field.
Clearly they did too little too late and can't admit it, now finding themselves in an unenviable situation where they are clutching at straws and denying scientists save a handful of mostly civil servants the ability to help
Closing borders was necessary in January. It would still help but unsupervised isolation against an inability to track and trace the current possible 30000 new cases a day is just window dresing
Re slipping/night stopping crews and
That's not actually a universal truth.
FYI there are some places with quite draconian inbound quarantine regs where slipping crew are not exempt.
Most certainly a month ago at a certain far East destination slipping crews were restricted to staying at the airport hotel - they were escorted direct from arrivals to that hotel and were confined to their rooms for the duration of the stay - no going out of the room at all, so for example food was delivered to room..
Some countries have been taking this a bit more seriously than others.
FYI there are some places with quite draconian inbound quarantine regs where slipping crew are not exempt.
Most certainly a month ago at a certain far East destination slipping crews were restricted to staying at the airport hotel - they were escorted direct from arrivals to that hotel and were confined to their rooms for the duration of the stay - no going out of the room at all, so for example food was delivered to room..
Some countries have been taking this a bit more seriously than others.
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Re Hunterboy: "The post flight review of this crisis is going to be worth reading."
What? Like the Russia Report, or the SAGE Minutes? If ever published (v unlikely), all the interesting bits will have been redacted and the bulk of the public will already have forgotten
What? Like the Russia Report, or the SAGE Minutes? If ever published (v unlikely), all the interesting bits will have been redacted and the bulk of the public will already have forgotten
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There’s to be a “consultation” tomorrow with the airlines and there will also be exemptions for key workers according to the bbc news website. If that’s the case it hardly seems to be credible, either it’s needed for everyone or it’s not needed at all. The industry is already bleeding on the floor, I didn’t expect a conservative government to kick it to death.
I think it would be wise to see what actually transpires tomorrow before getting into a panic, there’s nothing official just yet.
I think it would be wise to see what actually transpires tomorrow before getting into a panic, there’s nothing official just yet.
Have you ever tried to talk sense with a yank on this? I think the poms are going the same way. Just sit back and watch the car crash. I blame Murdoch, feeding them the line.
Antonov225 sorry to come back but you are wrong. The epidemiology is little changed since 1918 and in 1918 the management was hand hygiene, social distancing and masks. Failure to close borders was known in 1918 to be an error. Mass events such as the Philadelphia peace loan rally was done against Federal advice and the medical officer for Manchester effectively repeated the current lockdown rules in spring 1918
Health has little effect on transmission, and everything I can do on my intensive care unit merely prevents a small proportion of deaths
It is because the epidemiology I was taught at medical school in the 1970s applied in 1918 and applies now allows the medical profession to say the politicians are wrong. You are correct we have much to learn, especially about the phytogenetics which may explain differing death numbers in different countries, but the genetics and mutations and intracellular function do not effect our management at this initial stage of infection
Health has little effect on transmission, and everything I can do on my intensive care unit merely prevents a small proportion of deaths
It is because the epidemiology I was taught at medical school in the 1970s applied in 1918 and applies now allows the medical profession to say the politicians are wrong. You are correct we have much to learn, especially about the phytogenetics which may explain differing death numbers in different countries, but the genetics and mutations and intracellular function do not effect our management at this initial stage of infection
The fundamental problem is that you cannot realistically social distance on a flight or through an airport. Screening does not work: they screened people prior to letting them onto repatriation flights but many of the passengers went down with the virus within days of landing. Mass testing is not available, time consuming and not particularly reliable.
People coming off a flight are travelling for a reason, be it work or pleasure. And that almost always involves high levels of social interaction. So you may get on a flight with it, you may catch it on the flight, if you have it you are almost certain to spread it after you land.
I'm in the oil industry: we ask people to quarantine before they go offshore, and screen them before they do. Some companies test: we don't, because on all the evidence the tests available in the UK are nowhere near reliable enough to make a material difference. We don't allow people offshore if they are high risk (pre-existing medical condition). There is COVID on many offshore installations, including three of ours. And there have been quite a few medivacs of very sick people who were not viewed as high risk.
So, absent a reliable test, absent a vaccine, asking people to quarantine after a flight is not unreasonable. A lot of people will not travel because they won't want to quarantine, either at the destination or on the return. Even without quarantine, they will likely choose not to travel because they view the risk of catching the virus whilst travelling, and having to deal with it away from home, as a risk they do not need or want to take.
This may be a deeply unpopular view if you work in the travel industry. But it will likely be the reality for 12 - 18 months.
People coming off a flight are travelling for a reason, be it work or pleasure. And that almost always involves high levels of social interaction. So you may get on a flight with it, you may catch it on the flight, if you have it you are almost certain to spread it after you land.
I'm in the oil industry: we ask people to quarantine before they go offshore, and screen them before they do. Some companies test: we don't, because on all the evidence the tests available in the UK are nowhere near reliable enough to make a material difference. We don't allow people offshore if they are high risk (pre-existing medical condition). There is COVID on many offshore installations, including three of ours. And there have been quite a few medivacs of very sick people who were not viewed as high risk.
So, absent a reliable test, absent a vaccine, asking people to quarantine after a flight is not unreasonable. A lot of people will not travel because they won't want to quarantine, either at the destination or on the return. Even without quarantine, they will likely choose not to travel because they view the risk of catching the virus whilst travelling, and having to deal with it away from home, as a risk they do not need or want to take.
This may be a deeply unpopular view if you work in the travel industry. But it will likely be the reality for 12 - 18 months.