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IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

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IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

Old 11th May 2020, 14:43
  #481 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GKOC41 View Post
Anyone said anything about BA Cityflyer not heard anything?
Willie said that London City will find this crisis even more challenging than other airports due to the profile of customer they mostly deal with. Take from that what you will.
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Old 11th May 2020, 16:31
  #482 (permalink)  
 
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Guys/ladies,
All this ‘debate’ about how CR should be implemented (LIFO/type specific/….) is surely only playing into the hands of the company? We are arguing amongst ourselves about who gets to hang when we should be concentrating on how we get rid of the noose. (The noose that hangs over all our heads!) BA must be wetting themselves as they monitor these posts.
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Old 12th May 2020, 01:30
  #483 (permalink)  
 
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Aviation is in a race to the bottom in America??

Puff, puff, pass, dude. Puff, puff, pass!!

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Old 12th May 2020, 08:44
  #484 (permalink)  
 
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It's been a race to the bottom for a couple decades at least, probably more......Freddy Laker cheap travel to Florida?
The self loading freight, talking baggage...insert other derogatory term for clients.....have been nibbling away at terms and conditions for years with the demand to go further for less. Large 'National carriers' have been slow to respond until like shifting tectonic plates, a seismic event happens and everyone has to live with the consequences.
I was once cornered by a taxi driver extolling the virtues of cheap air travel, he told me how he flew from Stansted to Newquay for £29, the story didn't end well though, when it was time to come back, Newquay was fogged in, the airline told the passengers they could have their money back or drive to Bristol for another flight, no hire cars available, etc, etc. Apparently it cost him a fortune to get his family back to Stansted, but even then he couldn't see the flaw in the new way of doing things and seemed to be a big fan of locos.
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Old 12th May 2020, 09:52
  #485 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Art of flight View Post
<snip>
The self loading freight, talking baggage...insert other derogatory term for clients.....have been nibbling away at terms and conditions for years with the demand to go further for less.
<snip>
I'm pretty sure that pilots are happy to get more for less as well. It applies to food, clothing, electronic & electrical equipment, furniture, etc.
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Old 12th May 2020, 11:03
  #486 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cats_five View Post
I'm pretty sure that pilots are happy to get more for less as well. It applies to food, clothing, electronic & electrical equipment, furniture, etc.
Yes, this is true. But, ILS is correct in what he says. I have suffered a lifetime of the sort of socialist rhetoric that he uses; but I really can’t fault his assessment of what is going on & what should be done to fight it. I am not, other than a PPL, a pilot. My career involved working hand in glove with pilots (commercial & private & military). I view them as the salt of the earth - as I also do my own fellow professionals. It is simply outrageous what BA appears to have in store for them , & their fellow staff members.
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Old 12th May 2020, 17:11
  #487 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GKOC41 View Post
Anyone said anything about BA Cityflyer not heard anything?
BACF have just announced possible redundancies of what amounts to 29% of pilots.
With a possible closure of the EDI base. ☹️
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Old 12th May 2020, 22:43
  #488 (permalink)  
 
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Kcockayne; I feel that the picture you relate of the staff is optimistic and I make that remark having recently completed 3 decades as a BA staff member. Management in my opinion has tended to be weak for far to long and to this end staff side have in the main been inflexible all to often. Regrettably, BA management have used the current situation as a stick to beat the staff with and simplify future contracts. Presently, there are literally thousands of differing contracts and staff side has always refused to address this problem. Your suggestions of reduced working, part time, unpaid leave etc sadly do not solve the problem which is to many staff. I would anticipate that Check-in and Ramp will be outsourced plus areas of the operation in an effort to retain more of the flying community. Either way it is a sad situation for the staff and the aviation industry but so many other areas of employment will suffer also.
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Old 13th May 2020, 11:34
  #489 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RJ100 View Post
BACF have just announced possible redundancies of what amounts to 29% of pilots.
With a possible closure of the EDI base. ☹️
Also a similar proportion of cabin crew. The numbers given are roughly equivalent to the number of EDI crew. Additionally it’s proposed cabin crew will lose roster change, disruption and dead head payments, plus unspecified efficient improvements and changes to the MOA.
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Old 13th May 2020, 13:41
  #490 (permalink)  
 
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It is ironic tho (serious point) that these MPs are the same people that hauled historic Thomas Cook execs in to ask them why they took on so much extra debt, didn’t take decisive leadership action to address their structures until they left it too late, ran out of cash, had little options available and the business failed. They cited lack of leadership and decisiveness to protect the business. I know it’s not a direct read across but surely it is better take the action when you have liquidity and hence time.....and who is to say this thing (or any other macroeconomic shock) doesn’t come along in 10 months time.....
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Old 13th May 2020, 14:37
  #491 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Art of flight View Post
The {customers}....have been nibbling away at terms and conditions for years with the demand to go further for less.
I was once cornered by a taxi driver extolling the virtues of cheap air travel, he told me how he flew from Stansted to Newquay for £29, the story didn't end well though, when it was time to come back, Newquay was fogged in, the airline told the passengers they could have their money back or drive to Bristol for another flight, no hire cars available, etc, etc. Apparently it cost him a fortune to get his family back to Stansted, but even then he couldn't see the flaw in the new way of doing things and seemed to be a big fan of locos.
Sadly, expecting ever lower costs seems to be many buyers' sole criteria. A flight for £5 less will get the booking over the competitor. Look on the website of a well known trade and DIY supplier, and one of the filters offered when searching for products is price. Not quality, not build materials, not country of manufacture, just price. And then house owners wonder why their new installation goes wrong or has poor performance.

Having said all that, some legacy contract BA staff have enjoyed frankly extremely generous salaries. BA CSD's for example earned more than I did as an F/O in other airlines, don't know if they still do.
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Old 13th May 2020, 18:09
  #492 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by HZ123 View Post
Kcockayne; I feel that the picture you relate of the staff is optimistic and I make that remark having recently completed 3 decades as a BA staff member. Management in my opinion has tended to be weak for far to long and to this end staff side have in the main been inflexible all to often. Regrettably, BA management have used the current situation as a stick to beat the staff with and simplify future contracts. Presently, there are literally thousands of differing contracts and staff side has always refused to address this problem. Your suggestions of reduced working, part time, unpaid leave etc sadly do not solve the problem which is to many staff. I would anticipate that Check-in and Ramp will be outsourced plus areas of the operation in an effort to retain more of the flying community. Either way it is a sad situation for the staff and the aviation industry but so many other areas of employment will suffer also.
Optimistic ? Maybe, But, this is not a normal downturn or airline running into cash problems. This is existential. This could make ALL the staff & the airline redundant. In these circumstances, it is realistic to feel that the staff will realise the extent of the airline's, & therefore their, problems. Everyone needs to make sacrifices & to pull together. I think that the staff realise this & acknowledge the extremely deep nature of their problems. They, of course, are not alone. Pretty much everyone in Europe is under the threat of a prolonged loss of work & income. What is needed is to keep the maximum number of staff in employment, even if that means severely reduced salaries. What is not needed is responses from Management such as BA's. A little bit of compassion & consideration is demanded from them - NOT a full scale blitzkrieg on people who are potentially down & out !
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Old 13th May 2020, 20:38
  #493 (permalink)  
 
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BA Management & IAG CEO

Originally Posted by kcockayne View Post
Optimistic ? Maybe, But, this is not a normal downturn or airline running into cash problems. This is existential. This could make ALL the staff & the airline redundant. In these circumstances, it is realistic to feel that the staff will realise the extent of the airline's, & therefore their, problems. Everyone needs to make sacrifices & to pull together. I think that the staff realise this & acknowledge the extremely deep nature of their problems. They, of course, are not alone. Pretty much everyone in Europe is under the threat of a prolonged loss of work & income. What is needed is to keep the maximum number of staff in employment, even if that means severely reduced salaries. What is not needed is responses from Management such as BA's. A little bit of compassion & consideration is demanded from them - NOT a full scale blitzkrieg on people who are potentially down & out !
The Government is already looking at the possibility to take the flag back.
WW attitude the other day certainly did not help IAG in reassuring the UK Gov & tax payers.

"In the case of BA, it is easier than you might imagine for the Government to take control. Whilst British Airways is part of Spanish-run IAG, the legal structure makes such a deal fairly easy. At present, you have a company called British Airways plc which controls the airline. British Airways plc continues to publish its own accounts – the 2019 set can be downloaded here.

There are 2.1 million shares of British Airways plc in issue, all – or at least the majority – of which are owned by IAG. However, it would be very easy for British Airways plc to issue new shares for cash which were acquired by HM Government. Once the Government shareholding in British Airways plc went over 50.1% the Government would have a controlling stake although IAG would remain a minority shareholder.

It is important to note that there is no benefit in the Government buying a minority stake in British Airways plc because the shares are not liquid. IAG would still control the business and there would be no guarantee that the Government could sell its shares at a later date. It needs to be 50.1%+ or nothing"


With the present IAG & BA management a min of 50.1% stake owned by the UK government would be the best move. It would save jobs, protect T&Cs and generate huge profits once the crisis is over, excellent for both the UK economy and public funds.
Tactical move before Brexit completion by end of Dec. IAG is a Spanish entity hence Gov has got not choice.
In a way WW & IAG have done the UK Government a huge favour by giving sufficient ammunition to speed up the return of the national carrier under British Management.

Last edited by ILS27LEFT; 13th May 2020 at 20:49.
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Old 13th May 2020, 20:48
  #494 (permalink)  
 
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"With the present BA management 50.1% stake owned by the UK government would be the best move. It would save jobs, protect T&Cs and generate huge profits once the crisis is over, excellent for both the UK economy and public funds."

Wow ILS27, this sounds far too good an opportunity to leave to the Government. I'll get my cheque book out straight away. You've really whetted my appetite with the prospect of huge profits.
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Old 13th May 2020, 21:03
  #495 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ILS27LEFT View Post
The Government is already looking at the possibility to take the flag back.
WW attitude the other day certainly did not help IAG in reassuring the UK Gov & tax payers.

"In the case of BA, it is easier than you might imagine for the Government to take control. Whilst British Airways is part of Spanish-run IAG, the legal structure makes such a deal fairly easy. At present, you have a company called British Airways plc which controls the airline. British Airways plc continues to publish its own accounts – the 2019 set can be downloaded here.

There are 2.1 million shares of British Airways plc in issue, all – or at least the majority – of which are owned by IAG. However, it would be very easy for British Airways plc to issue new shares for cash which were acquired by HM Government. Once the Government shareholding in British Airways plc went over 50.1% the Government would have a controlling stake although IAG would remain a minority shareholder.

It is important to note that there is no benefit in the Government buying a minority stake in British Airways plc because the shares are not liquid. IAG would still control the business and there would be no guarantee that the Government could sell its shares at a later date. It needs to be 50.1%+ or nothing"


With the present IAG & BA management a min of 50.1% stake owned by the UK government would be the best move. It would save jobs, protect T&Cs and generate huge profits once the crisis is over, excellent for both the UK economy and public funds.
Tactical move before Brexit completion by end of Dec. IAG is a Spanish entity hence Gov has got not choice.
In a way WW & IAG have done the UK Government a huge favour by giving sufficient ammunition to speed up the return of the national carrier under British Management.
And why on god's green earth would BA or IAG issue new shares for the government to buy, giving away voluntarily control of the company and diluting the current shareholders? It makes no sense. If the goverment wants control, the only thing it can do is buying the majority of the shares on the market, but they are simply not for sale.
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Old 13th May 2020, 21:12
  #496 (permalink)  
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With the present IAG & BA management a min of 50.1% stake owned by the UK government would be the best move. It would save jobs, protect T&Cs and generate huge profits once the crisis is over, excellent for both the UK economy and public funds.
Oh yes, because public ownership was such a success for British Airways in the past. I can’t understand why the Treasury aren’t drawing up the paperwork already!
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Old 13th May 2020, 22:10
  #497 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Big Tudor View Post
Oh yes, because public ownership was such a success for British Airways in the past. I can’t understand why the Treasury aren’t drawing up the paperwork already!
This is not “the past” & this is not nationalization for the sake of political dogma. Furthermore, the same situation as exists with BA exists with many other airlines & with companies outside the aviation sector. Quite frankly, the whole industrial base is threatened with extinction. Where that would leave public order & the very existence of the State is anyone’s guess. This nationalization (& that of other industries) would be necessary in order to keep the industrial infrastructure of the country intact , & to give the country a chance of survival. Nothing less !
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Old 13th May 2020, 22:42
  #498 (permalink)  

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The Government is already looking at the possibility to take the flag back.
And the source for that assertion?
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Old 13th May 2020, 22:54
  #499 (permalink)  
 
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WW attitude the other day certainly did not help IAG in reassuring the UK Gov & tax payers.
To be fair the questioning the other day at the select committee was so poor, I am not sure how you come to that conclusion. One MP got stuck in and rattled him a bit, but otherwise he was very comfortable.
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Old 13th May 2020, 22:54
  #500 (permalink)  
 
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M. Mouse; Exactly I have seen nothing in the press to suggest that the government might take a stake in BA. As already mentioned they have enough future issues and problems long before they worry about air travel. Besides what ever occurs there will be other airlines queuing up to fill in short falls!
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