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UK government says no industry-wide bailout for aviation

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UK government says no industry-wide bailout for aviation

Old 27th Mar 2020, 18:16
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The issue here is how will the Government deal with the banks-they got a pass in 2008 when many CEOs should have gone to prison.

Things are different this time and it is indeed the time for the government to call in the cheques they wrote the banks. Essentially they need to freeze the economy for three months and keep it ticking over but in good shape to rebound. This mean nationalising the banks-not in the true sense but not allowing them to take decisions so that all act as one directed by the Gov or BoE and the Chancellor. the Chancellor is a bit of a dubious character because he made money from peoples suffering in 2008 but he is a very clever competent man and he like the banks owes the general population big time.

As we ahve seen it needs central direction to ensure that where one part of an industry shuts down it all will. Otherwise they will all cheat and we will be picking up an even bigger tab than before.

As for the airlines I agree they should be kept afloat but because some are needed-BA and Ez for sure VS less of a case but
.as for Ryanair-sorry Mr O'Leary but its payback time-you are toast.- if Ryanair is helped one of the provsions is that O Leary and any of his henchmen all take a bullet for the rest of the staff.

Once such control measures are in place-they happened in wartime so theres not much new the Government can gradually ease things back to normality in three months or whatever and allow the economy to recover in a structured way. its not capitalism but capitalism soon becomes communism when the chips are really down as we have seen demonstrated all over the world in the last few weeks.
the final point is a years delay to leaving the Eu , the Uk is far far too small and weak to survive two economic shocks in one year and despite the comments on another thread earlier about Britain and punching above its wake in the Falklands-thats ancient history. we didnt then without US abandoning a Munroe doctrine policy and France giving us the specs of Exocets effectively neutralising the only significant Argentine weapon and we cannot do so now.
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Old 27th Mar 2020, 18:29
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pudoc View Post
And you think less competition will fix the problems of poor staff and customer treatment?
Haha, what competition??? Time and time again, the airlines get caught price fixing and price gouging so how are customers better off now? And I'm sorry but using tax payer money to bail them out isn't going to fix anything.

They will want their cake and to eat it. Just like the banks are doing yet again - they've already been caught out in Ireland trying to charge customers insane rates of interest and backdating interest in payment breaks and misleading them.

A certain airline here has also misguided its customers by saying they can only claim vouchers instead of a refund for flight cancellations.

So really my sympathy is non existent.

​​​​​
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Old 27th Mar 2020, 20:37
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by waco View Post
yep....people will still fly......but no where near as many as pre virus!
''but no where near as many as pre virus!''

Rubbish.
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Old 28th Mar 2020, 01:24
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Originally Posted by Superpilot View Post
Who said you have to divide it among all the employees and leave them with nothing? How much would you need to earn to fund a luxury lifestyle? 1 million, 2, 5 at a push?

https://www.payscale.com/data-packag...-pay/full-list


Total compensation: https://aflcio.org/paywatch/highest-paid-ceos and https://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/12/Rank_1.html
I wonder what the same graph would show if we cranked in the average pay of senior pilots on large aircraft?
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Old 28th Mar 2020, 02:08
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Originally Posted by Meester proach View Post
Am i there to entertain you ? Quite the reverse, Iím unfailingly optimistic - I just donít know why non pilots come on PPRuNe to slag off pilots jobs-

Anyway it wonít matter to you down the back, as long as we are on time and the WiFi works
But the wifi doesn't work. That's the problem.
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Old 28th Mar 2020, 06:45
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Also a fantastic point made by several news outlets recently - that the same companies begging for handouts are also the best at dodging taxes

"One of the first to seek a government bailout has been the cruise ship industry in the US. For decades, its ships have flown the colours of Panama, Liberia and other flags of convenience to skirt minimum wage laws as well as get out of paying taxes. Some companies have achieved corporate tax rates that even Google would envy.

In the UK, the airline industry quickly followed suit, with Virgin Atlantic, a company owned by a tax exile, writing to the government to say the entire industry may need support to the tune of £7.5bn. This letter came in the week that easyJet paid a dividend of £60m to its founder, Stelios Haji-Ioannou Ė tax resident in Monaco. Any support to the airline industry will no doubt flow through to aircraft leasing companies based in low-tax Ireland."
So again, I'd reiterate I have no sympathy for airlines whatsoever
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Old 28th Mar 2020, 07:06
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Praising capitalism and low taxation in good times, socialism and State aids when s*** hit the fan.

Why am I not surprised...
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Old 28th Mar 2020, 08:11
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Airline should be treated no differently to other companies, they can take advantage of the help offered by the Government , they can take a holiday on their loans or leasing deals. If the planes are parked up they are not wearing out, it’s just the same for all of us, if we can’t pay bills, our creditors will just have to wait, some will go bust, the over extended will go first, there are far too many companies that rely on only a few days income to stay solvent and have effectively no assets.
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Old 28th Mar 2020, 09:21
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Originally Posted by Deltasierra010 View Post
the over extended will go first, there are far too many companies that rely on only a few days income to stay solvent and have effectively no assets.
...and sadly they are often vital suppliers to companies whose finances are better managed, and a huge risk is that the former will collapse and take the latter down with them. This is a massive problem for the airlines (mainly freight operators) who are still flying at present, as credit lines are wound in by suppliers who donít realise that these operators are still buoyant, or the suppliers are seeing their own liquidity disappear. This is where governments need to act most urgently.
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Old 28th Mar 2020, 09:28
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Originally Posted by shamrock_f22 View Post
Also a fantastic point made by several news outlets recently - that the same companies begging for handouts are also the best at dodging taxes

"One of the first to seek a government bailout has been the cruise ship industry in the US. For decades, its ships have flown the colours of Panama, Liberia and other flags of convenience to skirt minimum wage laws as well as get out of paying taxes. Some companies have achieved corporate tax rates that even Google would envy.

In the UK, the airline industry quickly followed suit, with Virgin Atlantic, a company owned by a tax exile, writing to the government to say the entire industry may need support to the tune of £7.5bn. This letter came in the week that easyJet paid a dividend of £60m to its founder, Stelios Haji-Ioannou Ė tax resident in Monaco. Any support to the airline industry will no doubt flow through to aircraft leasing companies based in low-tax Ireland."
So again, I'd reiterate I have no sympathy for airlines whatsoever
What you said, Shamrock. (From an Ulsterman).

Last edited by covec; 2nd Apr 2020 at 22:17.
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Old 28th Mar 2020, 13:41
  #111 (permalink)  

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There will be little requirement for airlines that fly to SH/LH holiday destinations primarily (VS, Condor, for example).

The crying need will be for increased cargo ops, and practical services providing links between centres of population. ( Fedex, UPS, and Flybe plus BA in part as examples)

I would suggest that only those companies that provide vital functions should be supported. And with no personal interest, might Flybe not be resurrected and perhaps nationalised?)

London City should not have been permitted to close either. It is too important for financial connections.
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Old 28th Mar 2020, 15:07
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Superpilot View Post
Who said you have to divide it among all the employees and leave them with nothing? How much would you need to earn to fund a luxury lifestyle? 1 million, 2, 5 at a push?

https://www.payscale.com/data-packag...-pay/full-list


Total compensation: https://aflcio.org/paywatch/highest-paid-ceos and https://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/12/Rank_1.html
Funny how all curves in finance look identical to that since a particular date in 1971. Coincidence or carefully orchestrated?
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Old 28th Mar 2020, 15:25
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Passengers and agents allege Aer Lingus is breaking law on refunds

Airline denies claims while flying near-empty planes to US despite restrictions on arrivals



https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-...unds-1.4213285

I know they're not the only ones. BA are doing this too... IAG wide policy?
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Old 28th Mar 2020, 15:27
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by covec View Post
What you said, Shamrock. (From an Ulsterman &#128521.
Appreciate the solidarity btw I'm a Brit
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Old 28th Mar 2020, 17:28
  #115 (permalink)  
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not just aer lingus- wildwest of aviation

https://www.independent.ie/life/trav...-39080361.html


In this article Emirates are offering vouchers 12 months ahead- but they arent the only ones
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Old 28th Mar 2020, 18:43
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Air New Zealand are offering me a 'credit' rather than a refund for a cancelled Heathrow to Los Angeles flight next month. This, despite the fact that they are quitting the route in October and some reports suggest they have probably already operated their last ever flight from Heathrow.

You gotta admire the cheek of it! ;-)
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Old 28th Mar 2020, 19:57
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I would really recommend calling up your credit card company, I was foolish enough to accept a voucher from Iberia over a flight they cancelled and thus didn't realise I could not longer receive a refund. Called up AMEX, explained the situation, and the money has been credited to my account.
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Old 28th Mar 2020, 20:43
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I'm not so negative. I think that market forces should be allowed to run their course. If that were the case then there would be a lot of cheap aircraft, cheap crews and cheap fuel on the market. Airlines would start again without debt. In 5 years time you'd have an industry twice the size of the current one.
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Old 29th Mar 2020, 00:33
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Originally Posted by sewushr View Post
Air New Zealand are offering me a 'credit' rather than a refund for a cancelled Heathrow to Los Angeles flight next month. This, despite the fact that they are quitting the route in October and some reports suggest they have probably already operated their last ever flight from Heathrow.

You gotta admire the cheek of it! ;-)
curious as to when you booked the flight?
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Old 29th Mar 2020, 06:42
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
Essentially they need to freeze the economy for three months and keep it ticking over but in good shape to rebound.
This is the rational thing to do and that's why it won't be done.

Originally Posted by Mr Good Cat View Post
Funny how all curves in finance look identical to that since a particular date in 1971. Coincidence or carefully orchestrated?
Neither, just the management class taking what was made available to them.
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