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Emirates 777-31H, (EK521) Accident - Final Report Out

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Emirates 777-31H, (EK521) Accident - Final Report Out

Old 12th Feb 2020, 08:47
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Emirates 777-31H, (EK521) Accident - Final Report Out

Final Report No AIFN/0008/2016, issued on 20 January 2020 published on February 6th 2020
Publication site: https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/Pages/New...spx?NewsID=490
Final report (English): https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublicat...6-Feb-2020.pdf
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Old 12th Feb 2020, 10:01
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The industry has gone the wrong way with training.

Too much say has been given to automation

Stall recovery, unusual attitudes, go-arounds, etc are such fundamental items to us all, but are not trained (basic principles) anymore as simulator sessions are based on the capabilities/proceedures of the airplane concerned.

Switch off all that stuff and give the crews a basic airframe to play with. No magic button to do what's needed!

Thrust... check it's achieved
Attitude... check your'e pointed up
Flaps... select GA position
Gear, not critical but select up if positive rate.

A bit of fun doing this kind of stuff, instead of the intricate standard lessons designed to cover various regulated required items could be worth it's weight in gold...and even more value if we enjoy it and look forward to the next SIM.
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Old 12th Feb 2020, 12:40
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The gulf between my flying as a GA pilot .. wholly manually. And airline flying which seems more and more focussed on "automation must be used at all times" is widening. And it doesn't appear to be helping safety one tiny bit. Would removing the mandate to use auto throttle at all times have avoided this one ?
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 12:25
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Would removing the mandate to use auto throttle at all times have avoided this one ?
IN my opinion, yes.
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 12:35
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Originally Posted by Dave Gittins View Post
The gulf between my flying as a GA pilot .. wholly manually. And airline flying which seems more and more focussed on "automation must be used at all times" is widening. And it doesn't appear to be helping safety one tiny bit. Would removing the mandate to use auto throttle at all times have avoided this one ?
The thing is, it has helped safety a lot, it is hard to point out the accidents that haven't happened. The push for automation came from pilots hand flying planes into the ground at unacceptable rates. Now we are faced with pilots who can't fly if the automation doesn't help them, but aviation is still a lot safer than it used to be...
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 12:46
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Well we can easily fix that problem with a bit of money. Just mandate 2 hours of sim time per month for every airline pilot with no automatics. Job done...what’s that? Nobody wants to pay for it? Ohh, ok.
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 12:46
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No doubt about that .. I got the AAIB monthly report today and it contained a cooker fire on a 777 and a child falling off the steps of a 737 fortunately without injury. Absolute leaps and bounds from what it used to be.

The only real flying report was about inputting the wrong taxiway (and getting the wrong runway length) into the electronic flight bag at Lisbon (twice !).

BUT …. my (not a professional pilot) view is that simple flying skills and situational awareness would avoid the automation gotchas as well.

Last edited by Dave Gittins; 13th Feb 2020 at 14:21.
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 13:15
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Well we can easily fix that problem with a bit of money. Just mandate 2 hours of sim time per month for every airline pilot with no automatics. Job done...what’s that? Nobody wants to pay for it? Ohh, ok.
Exactly, they all think about the lowest prices in solving any problem.
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 13:37
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73qanda, et al,
There is no single method of resolving situations like this. Training is not a solution for every situation, neither automation.
Whatever we might think we have trained pilots to do, not everyone will act in that way, or see situations as trainers or rule-makers expect us to see; training has no guarantee of success.
Automation has a place, but every new automatic feature has ability to introduce its own situation-related hazard.

These safety situations are never ending challenges, often unsuitable for conventional intervention, thus require alternative views, thoughts and action, often all in combination. Without change all that we might do is chase our own tail, reactive safety, continually debate cause and 'solution' for what we might judge as low probability low risk situations, and then without agreement or action. All we do is fix the last accident, but its the next one which will 'get' us.

In this accident training might have helped, so too a better design of automation. Our choice is with hindsight, where the challenge is to foresee such situations and avoid them, require improved technology and the best of human abilities to manage situations which we have difficulty in imagining.

Last edited by safetypee; 13th Feb 2020 at 14:11.
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 17:52
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What if anything does 700 liters of water do to the C of G once released from where it's supposed to be? It has to weigh quite a bit.
What happens to the free water in unheated areas at altitude for example freeze thaw cycles and structure?
Regards

Fog
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 18:39
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Originally Posted by 73qanda View Post
Well we can easily fix that problem with a bit of money. Just mandate 2 hours of sim time per month for every airline pilot with no automatics. Job done...what’s that? Nobody wants to pay for it? Ohh, ok.
Nah.....just manually fly the airplane whilst out flying the line.
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 20:46
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Originally Posted by Fogliner View Post
What if anything does 700 liters of water do to the C of G once released from where it's supposed to be? It has to weigh quite a bit.
What happens to the free water in unheated areas at altitude for example freeze thaw cycles and structure?
Regards

Fog
When it thaws it runs out of the drains in the bilges. So no structural damage as such.
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Old 14th Feb 2020, 21:19
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Originally Posted by Fogliner View Post
What if anything does 700 liters of water do to the C of G once released from where it's supposed to be? It has to weigh quite a bit.
What happens to the free water in unheated areas at altitude for example freeze thaw cycles and structure?
Regards

Fog
700 Liters H2O weighs, by definition 700kgs.
.7 of a ton or roughly 9 passengers.
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Old 15th Feb 2020, 09:38
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https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublicat...6-Feb-2020.pdf

Tried to download this report but it was obvious it was going to take a very long time so gave up. Any idea of another way of obtaining a faster result?
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Old 15th Feb 2020, 12:38
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Originally Posted by bburks View Post
Nah.....just manually fly the airplane whilst out flying the line.
Thats exactly what is needed...most people won’t disconnect the automatics until they get a landing clearance, won’t fly autothrust off, won’t fly manually in IMC etc etc. Obviously if you are getting overloaded AND automation can help you, use it (there are also cases where automation increases the workload, in that case disconnect it or go back to basic modes)...but if pilots feel „overloaded“ due to the simple fact that they are in IMC they are maybe in the wrong business (and the excuse „But a manual flown go around is challenging“ does not cut it - after rotation to initial climb attitude the autopilot can be reengaged on some/most airplanes go around modes will automatically come back on the FMA even if the approach was flown raw data...).
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Old 15th Feb 2020, 19:02
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Originally Posted by Centaurus View Post
https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublicat...6-Feb-2020.pdf

Tried to download this report but it was obvious it was going to take a very long time so gave up. Any idea of another way of obtaining a faster result?
Try again. It just took 6 seconds for me on a fairly slow line
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Old 15th Feb 2020, 20:03
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When you teach MCC/JOC/APS/MPL on the Boeing 737, the customer is moving from a light twin 2MT to a training weight of 60+MT. Apart from the first real experience of inertia, full automation is introduced.

It is critical from a very early stage the correct protocols are observed.

The use of A/T is highly addictive especially when linked into the TOGA mode. They must be taught to follow the TLs forward every time the TOGA button is pressed.

When they forgot to follow through, you fail the A/T and let nature take its course......they soon learn. Their brains are hardened & they are unlikely to forget.

“Make as many mistakes as you want, but only make the same mistake once”

My past students may well be having a sense of déjà vu........
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Old 15th Feb 2020, 23:59
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Originally Posted by parkfell View Post
The use of A/T is highly addictive especially when linked into the TOGA mode. They must be taught to follow the TLs forward every time the TOGA button is pressed.

When they forgot to follow through, you fail the A/T and let nature take its course......they soon learn. Their brains are hardened & they are unlikely to forget.
Kudos for that. Proper use and monitoring of the autothrottle has suffered with the advent of FADEC - back when there were cables hooking everything to the thrust levers, it wasn't particularly uncommon for high down stream cable forces to cause the throttle clutch to slip on one (or more) engines and the associated thrust lever to lag. Hence the need to 'follow the throttles'. With FADEC, such problems are rare (although they do still happen on occasion due to an obstruction in the aisle stand itself), allowing some pilots to become lazy...
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 01:26
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Originally Posted by roger1NP View Post
Exactly, they all think about the lowest prices in solving any problem.
Right but if all the airlines HAD to do it the cost increase would be the same for everyone so in theory they could/should all raise the prices the same... seems logical but then again we are dealing with airline managers !!!!
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 02:22
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Centaurus. The Library in Keilor Rd Niddrie has 'fast' internet.
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