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Boeing posts first loss in two decades as 737 Max costs double

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Boeing posts first loss in two decades as 737 Max costs double

Old 3rd Feb 2020, 12:07
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Originally Posted by LowObservable
The bean counters, and I am not one, are only doing what the shareholders want: to increase the revenues per share, whichever the consequences are.

In all too many cases, this has been overtaken by the desire to increase shareholder value, which is not the same thing. Dividends and buybacks don't increase revenue, but they increase share price while diverting cash that would otherwise be used for internal investment, such as creating soundly engineered new products.
Running a business like Boeing requires that the beancounters go for 'long term greed'. Unfortunately, as with many companies they are aiming at short term greed and end of year bonuses which only puts the company into a spiral dive of continual short term thinking. Long term greed could possibly be enforced by paying management and beancounters in stock options that they can only convert to cash after say 10 years from issue. The management attitudes would change considerably.
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 12:39
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Long expected, finally arrived: SEC Investigations
https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...round-737-max/
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 17:07
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Boeing confirms SEC and 737 Max

Boeing under investigation by SEC regarding MAX.

https://komonews.com/news/nation-wor...around-737-max
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 17:50
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Boeing doesn't expect Federal Aviation Administration approval of its changes to the plane until mid-year.
Is this the first we have seen about "mid-year" now ? KOMO News is the ABC affiliate in Seattle and will be well connected with the situation.
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 18:17
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The SEC investigation has been going on for months. Hardly news.

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Old 4th Feb 2020, 18:26
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From an industrial point of view it is interesting to find out if this will show parallels with the investigation of Volkswagen (diesel). At face value there are some parallels.
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 18:28
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Originally Posted by WHBM
Is this the first we have seen about "mid-year" now ? KOMO News is the ABC affiliate in Seattle and will be well connected with the situation.
No, they made the 'mid year' announcement last month, as part of the year end results.
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Old 5th Feb 2020, 08:21
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Originally Posted by tdracer
No, they made the 'mid year' announcement last month, as part of the year end results.
I'd missed that. But I'm sure one of the things the SEC will want to look at is the continual reannouncing of return to service expectations, which have consistently been around 4-6 months away ever since the start of the issue, and which are a classic for unjustified bolstering of the stock price. They will want to know the justifications for all the dates, why they have then been consistently missed and extended out, and whether this is regarded as misleading the stockholders.
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Old 5th Feb 2020, 08:34
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Originally Posted by WHBM
I'd missed that. But I'm sure one of the things the SEC will want to look at is the continual reannouncing of return to service expectations, which have consistently been around 4-6 months away ever since the start of the issue, and which are a classic for unjustified bolstering of the stock price. They will want to know the justifications for all the dates, why they have then been consistently missed and extended out, and whether this is regarded as misleading the stockholders.
If each reannouncement is linked to an unforeseen action/decision by the regulator(s) then all that was given was the best information at the time.
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Old 5th Feb 2020, 10:01
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Originally Posted by A0283
The SEC investigation has been going on for months. Hardly news.
Genuie interest: Are there any sources?
It is news to me and I have long been waiting for this, so I'm really intrested when it was first disclosed.
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Old 5th Feb 2020, 18:51
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Originally Posted by Ian W
If each reannouncement is linked to an unforeseen action/decision by the regulator(s) then all that was given was the best information at the time.
Well that is indeed what will be asked for, with evidence for how they arrived at their statement. The SEC have been very patient so far, but once an Investigation is announced a Certain Message is being sent. And their investigating teams are no fools.

Mr Dennis may have to come back to answer a question or two.
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Old 5th Feb 2020, 22:24
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Originally Posted by A0283
The SEC investigation has been going on for months. Hardly news.
The Seattle Times article says, in para 2,
Boeing disclosed the Securities and Exchange Commission investigation in a regulatory filing Friday.
So perhaps not old news, except for people who are very inward to Boeing's private affairs.
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Old 8th Feb 2020, 14:14
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Originally Posted by A0283
From an industrial point of view it is interesting to find out if this will show parallels with the investigation of Volkswagen (diesel). At face value there are some parallels.
in the Volkswagen investigation there was only fraud!
in the Max crash the origin is not the fraud but a lack of computer knowledge. That lack of knowledge is existing by Airbus too, and in the whole aeronautical world including the certification process in use by ICAO
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Old 8th Feb 2020, 17:18
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Originally Posted by roulishollandais
in the Volkswagen investigation there was only fraud!
in the Max crash the origin is not the fraud but a lack of computer knowledge. That lack of knowledge is existing by Airbus too, and in the whole aeronautical world including the certification process in use by ICAO
My emphasis.

Can you elaborate on that.

I understood that MCAS-1 (before the grounding) performed as-per-specification (with the pilots expected to catch the "trim-runaway").
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Old 9th Feb 2020, 00:37
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You are correct Peter H, zero evidence has been released that the MCAS did not function as anticipated. The code was not the problem, the specification itself was the fundamentally flawed for commercial reasons. The name you want to search (this site & google) is Rick Ludkte. By having only a single sensor MCAS, no warning to the pilots was required, no warning means no simulator training, only a one hour iPad course. The risk was further assessed by Boeing as being one below catastrophic, and therefore did not require a crew warning.

Penalties of $1 million per aircraft were agreed by Boeing if simulator training was required for some large orders.
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Old 11th Feb 2020, 20:59
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Just noticed this audio-video about the 737 Max, by a Boeing insider.
An interesting take on the continuing Max debacle.



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Old 11th Feb 2020, 22:42
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Silly boy. Didn't you know all Death Planes have ECAS?
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Old 11th Feb 2020, 23:02
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Originally Posted by Roddenty
Just noticed this audio-video about the 737 Max, by a Boeing insider.
An interesting take on the continuing Max debacle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OzFlqHikUc&t=1634s
OK I'll bite.

Viewed some of the video and I don't agree with some of his comments.

The "classic" was before the NG but he seems to think that the NG is a "classic"!
The ECS was redesigned from the panel aspect as was all of the overhead panel, but SW Airlines didn't want the "toggle switches" to go, as this would have meant "training" would have been involved.

The "cigar shaped" engine was in fact the P&W JT8D engines mounted on the 737-100/200 series.
The rudder PCU's were changed for Cat iii operations and so on.
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Old 12th Feb 2020, 08:26
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Originally Posted by 568
OK I'll bite.

Viewed some of the video and I don't agree with some of his comments.
The rudder PCU's were changed for Cat iii operations and so on.
Think you are wrong there. Unlike all other aircraft, the 737 had a single rudder PCU. (A bit like MCAS only using one AoA sensor - you would have thought Boeing would have learned by now that two is the minimum).

The 737 rudder PCU was made into a dual system because of several incidents and two crashes, not because of Cat III operations. Seem to remember that one of those incidents was on a BA 747, which captured the error on data recorders (the 747 used the same PCU for the elevators).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues

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Old 12th Feb 2020, 09:35
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Everyone's now talking about a good CEO for Boeing. Most name Alan Mullaly. But I suddenly have a brilliant idea that Boeing can use for a reasonable fee. Why not Carlos Gosn? He's free. He dug Nissan out of a $20-bln debt hole. He turned that ungrateful company around and put it on the way to prosperity. And he does what Boeing love - cuts costs... without killing the end product.

Why not him? I'm sure Pompeo can settle the corruption charges with Japan. With his boss, he should have some experience in that kind of talking. The only difference this time would be that charges against Gosn are absolutely bogus, which would make Mikey's job all the easier. Are you listening, Boeing?
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