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Delta emergency @ LAX, dumps fuel on school playground.

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Delta emergency @ LAX, dumps fuel on school playground.

Old 15th Jan 2020, 22:57
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by slacktide View Post
Appears to have been filmed from the parking lot of "A&T Burgers #2", approximately half the distance to the 25R threshold as the Park Avenue elementary school in Cudahy.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/A%...54758?hl=en-US
I've missed it, perhaps, but do we know when they stopped dumping, if they did? That location is -- what? -- 7-8 statute miles from the runway?
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Old 15th Jan 2020, 23:25
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Spooky 2 View Post
How many times have you dumped fuel in that 737????
0 and you know why. That doesnít mean I donít understand the thought processes behind choosing to dump fuel vs an immediate return and landing overweight in a 2 engine aircraft that has lost an engine... are you implying it is trained that with a secured engine itís ok to dump fuel below 2800 ft AGL? Iíd see dumping over the ocean for 20 minutes single engine (although probably not what the QRH says in a 777 so hands are probably tied there) or just returning and doing the overweight landing (which I HAVE done) and just writing it up for the inspection, after all they are likely going to be changing an engine anyway... the plane isnít going anywhere.
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Old 15th Jan 2020, 23:35
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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'Dump valves close automatically upon main strut compression'
Surprised all the hotels on Sepulveda and Century blvd haven't complained...
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 00:05
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by canyonblue737 View Post
0 and you know why. That doesnít mean I donít understand the thought processes behind choosing to dump fuel vs an immediate return and landing overweight in a 2 engine aircraft that has lost an engine... are you implying it is trained that with a secured engine itís ok to dump fuel below 2800 ft AGL? Iíd see dumping over the ocean for 20 minutes single engine (although probably not what the QRH says in a 777 so hands are probably tied there) or just returning and doing the overweight landing (which I HAVE done) and just writing it up for the inspection, after all they are likely going to be changing an engine anyway... the plane isnít going anywhere.
Even I, SLF, know the answer to this one. So why build some that can and some that can't?
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 00:26
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tiger9999187 View Post
Some nice high quality footage here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qurh...62TSxS7c-uGstg
I wonder if Delta had this in mind when they painted their logo big and bright on the belly.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 00:46
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OldnGrounded View Post
I've missed it, perhaps, but do we know when they stopped dumping, if they did? That location is -- what? -- 7-8 statute miles from the runway?
On the video the dumping continues for at least 30 seconds after it passes directly overhead. I can't tell if the dumping stops after that or if it just becomes too faint to see due to the distance. Also, here's a tweet from a guy who says he observed the dumping while he was hiking in Griffith Park, so it appears the Hollywood Hills got a little sprinkle from the tinkle as well.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 01:54
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by canyonblue737 View Post
0 and you know why. That doesnít mean I donít understand the thought processes behind choosing to dump fuel vs an immediate return and landing overweight in a 2 engine aircraft that has lost an engine... are you implying it is trained that with a secured engine itís ok to dump fuel below 2800 ft AGL? Iíd see dumping over the ocean for 20 minutes single engine (although probably not what the QRH says in a 777 so hands are probably tied there) or just returning and doing the overweight landing (which I HAVE done) and just writing it up for the inspection, after all they are likely going to be changing an engine anyway... the plane isnít going anywhere.

I don't think you understand at all. If you need to dump it is desirabl, if it can be done, to be at or above 4000AGL, but I don't believe there any regulation that requires any altitude should the need arise. The 777 has a pretty sophisticated fuel dump sytem to cover many of the nuances discussed in this thread so far. in addition there should have been 4 pilots on the flight deck st this point in time.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 06:12
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Unless a greater emergency occurred which prevented them either landing safely overweight or discontinuing the approach then this should not have happened. If you can accelerate to V1 and stop on a runway then you can land overweight on it. Ideally if you have time you go and dump fuel over the sea or above 10000ft, which also gives you time to plan a single engine approach. If you must land immediately then you can safely do so having actioned the overweight landing checklist which determines flap setting to ensure adequate go-around performance. If you land overweight then it requires an overweight maintenance check but as the aircraft had a faulty engine then not going to cause any delays to getting it back in service!

Spending more time problem solving rather than rushing into an approach would have prevented this (unless getting on the ground immediately was imperative).

The min height to jettison fuel to ensure it evaporates before hitting the ground is 7000ft in winter and 4000ft in summer.

Last edited by Propellerhead; 16th Jan 2020 at 06:32.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 08:13
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Ex Non-pilot aircrew here.

I have experienced compressor stalls on B727 climb outs after which our erstwhile flight engineer would explain this away as being attributed to the fuselage creating a shadow during high angle climb outs. It certainly felt like we launching a rocket at times from some short fields and this was then sometimes followed by a 'boom boom' in quick succession.Indications on the flight deck always found No 2 was the culprit.

But what causes a compressor to stall on a T7? Is it a function of heavy TO weight and high alpha on climb out and if so, would not both engines suffer in that case? Or is it related to steep climbing turns where the engine turning in might suffer some airflow shadow affect?


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Old 16th Jan 2020, 08:17
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Spooky 2 View Post
I don't think you understand at all. If you need to dump it is desirabl, if it can be done, to be at or above 4000AGL, but I don't believe there any regulation that requires any altitude should the need arise. The 777 has a pretty sophisticated fuel dump sytem to cover many of the nuances discussed in this thread so far. in addition there should have been 4 pilots on the flight deck st this point in time.
Initially the crew in comms with ATC said no to the fuel dumping. Then at some stage my guess is that one or two of the jump seaters "helped out" by initiating the fuel dump. From my viewing of the video from the burger joint, dumping ceased as they got closer to LAX. Seems port dump valve closed earlier than the starboard valve. Anyhow, the report clarify for all.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 08:54
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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No

Originally Posted by Lord Farringdon View Post
Ex Non-pilot aircrew here.

I have experienced compressor stalls on B727 climb outs after which our erstwhile flight engineer would explain this away as being attributed to the fuselage creating a shadow during high angle climb outs. It certainly felt like we launching a rocket at times from some short fields and this was then sometimes followed by a 'boom boom' in quick succession.Indications on the flight deck always found No 2 was the culprit.

But what causes a compressor to stall on a T7? Is it a function of heavy TO weight and high alpha on climb out and if so, would not both engines suffer in that case? Or is it related to steep climbing turns where the engine turning in might suffer some airflow shadow affect?
Wear/damage/Fedec fault/ bird ingestion.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 10:47
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ThreeIfByAir View Post
Is there some kind of auto-dump that happens on the 777 when the crew tells it they're planning on an overweight landing? Is there some imaginable software misfeature that turns on dumping automatically?.
No, there is no "auto-dump", The crew need to positively arm the dump system and then open the jettison nozzles to get the process started. The only obviously "automated" feature is one previously mentioned - if the crew don't intervene any further the system automatically defaults to stopping the dumping when the aircraft gets down to Maximum landing weight. The crew can choose to override that figure.

Never heard of dumping starting automatically...
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 11:14
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OldnGrounded View Post
I've missed it, perhaps, but do we know when they stopped dumping, if they did? That location is -- what? -- 7-8 statute miles from the runway?
From the video looks like the left valve stops dumping at 0:35, and the right at 0:38. (And as reference, I reckon the plane passes directly overhead the camera at 0:12). I'll leave you to work out where it was when it stopped dumping.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 11:57
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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The type of engine noises being described are consistent with fuel contamination. So, in my mind, there is already sufficient cause to consider the situation urgent.
Clearly the pilot should have dumped when he was at a higher altitude, but given that he didn't, dumping low seems reasonable - else he could have found himself landing heavy with engines out.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 13:59
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by malanda View Post
From the video looks like the left valve stops dumping at 0:35, and the right at 0:38. (And as reference, I reckon the plane passes directly overhead the camera at 0:12). I'll leave you to work out where it was when it stopped dumping.
Thanks, it does look like that. It will be interesting to learn whether it stopped because max weight was reached -- in which case they must have dumped a lot of fuel -- or because someone upfront finally noticed.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 14:27
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by turbidus View Post
Dump fuel over unpopulated area in LA???? Good luck!
Pacific Ocean just west of the airport is pretty unpopulated from what I can tell, no luck required, just a heading of 270.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 15:25
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dilbert68 View Post
Pacific Ocean just west of the airport is pretty unpopulated from what I can tell, no luck required, just a heading of 270.
but if there was no need in the pilots mind at that time hence a circuit to the east and the surprise to us all on the ground when the fuel dumped after they turned back from the east of the field ?

Seems like by now the pilots have been debriefed and the Feds at least must know what really happened in the cockpit
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 15:39
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OldnGrounded View Post
It will be interesting to learn whether it stopped because max weight was reached -- in which case they must have dumped a lot of fuel -- or because someone upfront finally noticed.
If it's any help in answering that question, total time from wheels-off to wheels-on was a tad under 25 minutes.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 16:01
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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FWIW as a very rough ballpark/back of the envelope figure you can work on dumping at 2 tonnes a minute (it’s a different rate Centre tank vs. Wings but 2/min will do as a first approximation)..

Now all we need is to continue the Monday A.M quarterbacking is the Take off weight and the Zero Fuel Weight.....
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 16:22
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dilbert68 View Post
Pacific Ocean just west of the airport is pretty unpopulated from what I can tell, no luck required, just a heading of 270.

A 270 heading would put just about over Malibu and the homes of the rich and famous. Oh the horrors that would ensue. A 250 heading would work better IMO,

Last edited by Spooky 2; 16th Jan 2020 at 18:13.
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