Close call + ATC link at JFK
KJFK is large and busy but so is EGLL, and EGKK is busy, yet the controllers are calm and clear. Ditto LFPG and EHAM, to name two other large airports.
Some US controllers talk as if their hair is on fire - like the lady on the tape from 3 mins in and the guy from about 10 mins - and I never really know if this is because they are stressed or are trying to impress someone. Indeed, they even abbreviate frequency readouts to “tower point one” or whatever to save time, but if they really need to speak so quickly, somebody needs to reorganise the way they operate the airfield.
In this case though Delta 300 is clearly heard being instructed to “hold short”, and he clearly reads back the hold short restriction.
Some US controllers talk as if their hair is on fire - like the lady on the tape from 3 mins in and the guy from about 10 mins - and I never really know if this is because they are stressed or are trying to impress someone. Indeed, they even abbreviate frequency readouts to “tower point one” or whatever to save time, but if they really need to speak so quickly, somebody needs to reorganise the way they operate the airfield.
In this case though Delta 300 is clearly heard being instructed to “hold short”, and he clearly reads back the hold short restriction.
Last edited by Uplinker; 14th Jan 2020 at 16:04.
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One human factor influence I'm wondering about is that he's asked for his gate number and it happens to be 22 - and whether that mentally becomes permission to cross runway 22?
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There are recordings for 123.9 (departure runway 22R) and 119.1 (arrival runway 22L) available in the archives at: https://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=jfk
119.1: https://archive-server.liveatc.net/k...2020-2330Z.mp3
123.9: https://archive-server.liveatc.net/k...2020-2330Z.mp3
119.1 is the frequency where the hold short instructions were given.
The first hold short after exiting the runway was read back correctly.
The 2nd hold short instruction, followed by the question as to the gate, was answered by a single word transmission without callsign: "22".
The controller did not challenge the missing readback.
As usual more than one mistake is necessary, luckily the 3rd hole didn't line up and the plane on takeoff roll was instructed to abort (123.9).
This is obviously not the full picture, there could still be pieces missing from what was said.
Maybe the pilot even let go of the button, one can't say for certain without the CPR and the tapes from the tower.
But this is not the NTSB, so speculate is all that we can do.
119.1: https://archive-server.liveatc.net/k...2020-2330Z.mp3
123.9: https://archive-server.liveatc.net/k...2020-2330Z.mp3
119.1 is the frequency where the hold short instructions were given.
The first hold short after exiting the runway was read back correctly.
The 2nd hold short instruction, followed by the question as to the gate, was answered by a single word transmission without callsign: "22".
The controller did not challenge the missing readback.
As usual more than one mistake is necessary, luckily the 3rd hole didn't line up and the plane on takeoff roll was instructed to abort (123.9).
This is obviously not the full picture, there could still be pieces missing from what was said.
Maybe the pilot even let go of the button, one can't say for certain without the CPR and the tapes from the tower.
But this is not the NTSB, so speculate is all that we can do.
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Risk.
A ground collision will happen before long at JFK/KJFK. Likely in the dark. Reasons will be unintelligible and rapid-fire ATC, non-U.S pilots, badly marked taxiways, multiple frequency changes, and 2 crew a/c monitoring and transmitting/responding on 2 separate frequencies at the same time. Non-standard is standard at that place. The airport is a shambles. FAA should be ashamed, as should the airport authorities. KORD is not much better. Whereas KLAS, KSFO, and even KLAX are streets ahead. My thoughts, having narrowly avoided a ground collision due to a 747 taxiing across us at high speed incorrectly, due to a wrong clearance from Ground.
Quite agree. A very dangerous practice is the aircraft having to call Ramp on box two to find their gate, while they have just vacated the runway and are reconfiguring and taxiing around a very large and complicated airport - instead of ATC Ground simply looking it up.
So one pilot has to taxi and deal with the rapid fire radio calls - and doesn't have a spare hand to write anything down - while the other pilot is away on box two trying to find out the gate number. Absolute madness, and frankly very dangerous at a big busy airport.
Ground control must, or should, have access to a screen displaying the gate numbers, and they really should stop asking the aircraft to get this information.
Also what is Ramp all about?? I know it is owned by a different authority, but Ground should deal with that.
So one pilot has to taxi and deal with the rapid fire radio calls - and doesn't have a spare hand to write anything down - while the other pilot is away on box two trying to find out the gate number. Absolute madness, and frankly very dangerous at a big busy airport.
Ground control must, or should, have access to a screen displaying the gate numbers, and they really should stop asking the aircraft to get this information.
Also what is Ramp all about?? I know it is owned by a different authority, but Ground should deal with that.
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I've flown out of JFK for 40 yrs. The controllers speak to fast, especially to foreign carriers. Years ago at some airports it seemed like it was a contest to see how fast they could speak on the ATIS recording. Nothing like having to listen multiple times to get all the information. Ridiculous. JFK ground appears to be of the same mindset. If they slowed down slightly they'd have less "say again".
How about when you get to a parallel rwy, regardless what was said on the radio, LOOK OUT THE F_ING WINDOW AND SEE IF THERE IS PLANE POINTED AT YOU!!! Pilot since 1978 and a controller for 17 yrs. Yes, JFK talks fast, as do many places so it is no different. You land on 22L, turn off the runway the TWR controller will say “ABC123, right turn on JULIET, hold short of 22R”. When you are actually given an INSTRUCTION to cross 22R the phraseology will be ‘ABC123, CROSS 22R, right on BRAVO monitor ground .9”. PERIOD!! The controller will NEVER say ‘’ABC123 you are CLEARED to cross 22R, right on BRAVO monitor ground .9”. It is the difference between a CLEARANCE and an INSTRUCTION. All of you who say ‘Ok, ABC123, cleared to cross 22R, right on Bravo monitor ground” are part of the problem. “CLEARED TO LAND”, CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF” are the only times you will get a “clearance” from TWR. ANY runway crossings will be an INSTRUCTION, big difference. One word, TENERIFE.
How about when you get to a parallel rwy, regardless what was said on the radio, LOOK OUT THE F_ING WINDOW AND SEE IF THERE IS PLANE POINTED AT YOU!!!
Oh, I never thought of doing that !
Seriously though, at night, or in poor vis; a large unfamiliar airport, multiple long runways, aircraft and lights in the far distance, it is not always easy to be sure*, hence why we rely on ATC. You are ATC, so it all makes a lot more sense to you, but not all pilots are familiar with airports they fly to. Add the totally unnecessary machine gun delivery of some controllers, the requirement to separately speak to Ramp on box two and it is a confusing and difficult place to be. As some have pointed out, having to discuss your gate as you leave the runway is potentially dangerous, since more numbers and radio calls and read-backs are being added to the mix. Get rid of all the gate number conversations and the frequency would be much less cluttered, and probably a lot safer.
I personally think the instruction "Stop" should be introduced, and the designation of the stop point. So something like; "Taxi Bravo, Delta, Stop at Delta Seven". The runway designation itself should perhaps only be mentioned when you are being instructed to cross it or line up on it.
*Do you remember the decapitation of a pilot at CDG by the wing of an aircraft taking off, and they most certainly WERE looking to check if there was an aircraft on the runway.
Having landed at JFK after 15 hours...looking out to the right into a sea of lights, darkness and rain and spotting what might be an aircraft rolling 1-2kms distance away means I have to rely on ATC & my FO...."LOOKING OUT THE F@$!ING WINDOW"......yes it's done.....but it ain't the magic elixir you're selling.
Someone mentioned earlier....removing the requirement to contact ramp on box 2 would be a step in the right direction.
Get the port authority to give the gate info directly to ATC would be one less distraction after landing.
At the very least ATC might delay the gate info request from us until after crossing an active runway.
Here's hoping any lessons learnt result in positive changes to JFK ATC.
Someone mentioned earlier....removing the requirement to contact ramp on box 2 would be a step in the right direction.
Get the port authority to give the gate info directly to ATC would be one less distraction after landing.
At the very least ATC might delay the gate info request from us until after crossing an active runway.
Here's hoping any lessons learnt result in positive changes to JFK ATC.
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SOP - don't contact other frequencies (ramp, company) until clear of ALL crossing runways. It's been that way for decades. Obviously some ASSUME ing going on when you cross an active runway after being told to hold short. When in doubt ask. Almost every incident has some of these factors involved.
Last edited by misd-agin; 15th Jan 2020 at 14:58.
SOP - don't contact other frequencies (ramp, company) until clear of ALL crossing runways. It's been that way for decades. Obviously some ASSUME ing going on when you cross an active runway after being told to hold short. When in doubt ask. Almost every incident has some of these factors involved.
For an airport like JFK to not be using RT that is perfectly ICAO compliant is simply indefensible. That's the bottom line. It's the same "Yanks do it better, put up or shut up" attitude that has landed Boeing in very hot water.
Not to mention, the aircraft involved in this event were not even foreign. It's only a matter of time.
Not to mention, the aircraft involved in this event were not even foreign. It's only a matter of time.
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For an airport like JFK to not be using RT that is perfectly ICAO compliant is simply indefensible. That's the bottom line. It's the same "Yanks do it better, put up or shut up" attitude that has landed Boeing in very hot water.
Not to mention, the aircraft involved in this event were not even foreign. It's only a matter of time.
Not to mention, the aircraft involved in this event were not even foreign. It's only a matter of time.
Almost every pilot crew room I have ever worked in, and every terminal of every airport have screens showing which flights are on which gates.
KJFK : please get a screen the Ground controller(s) can see so they know where to send us without having to ask.
Our company forbids active pilots making non vital radio calls after TOD, and this includes calls to agents and Ramp. So unless we are a heavy crew we have to wait until on the ground, unless we get an ACARS message, (which we don't).
Both pilots are required to closely monitor the taxi phase, especially at large, complicated and confusing airports, so having one pilot leaving box one to talk on box two is potentially dangerous.
KJFK : please get a screen the Ground controller(s) can see so they know where to send us without having to ask.
Our company forbids active pilots making non vital radio calls after TOD, and this includes calls to agents and Ramp. So unless we are a heavy crew we have to wait until on the ground, unless we get an ACARS message, (which we don't).
Both pilots are required to closely monitor the taxi phase, especially at large, complicated and confusing airports, so having one pilot leaving box one to talk on box two is potentially dangerous.
Last edited by Uplinker; 16th Jan 2020 at 09:17.
Almost every pilot crew room I have ever worked in, and every terminal of every airport have screens showing which flights are on which gates.
KJFK : please get a screen the Ground controller(s) can see so they know where to send us without having to ask.
Our company forbids active pilots making non vital radio calls after TOD, and this includes calls to agents and Ramp. So unless we are a heavy crew we have to wait until on the ground, unless we get an ACARS message, (which we don't).
Both pilots are required to closely monitor the taxi phase, especially at large, complicated and confusing airports, so having one pilot leaving box one to talk on box two is potentially dangerous.
KJFK : please get a screen the Ground controller(s) can see so they know where to send us without having to ask.
Our company forbids active pilots making non vital radio calls after TOD, and this includes calls to agents and Ramp. So unless we are a heavy crew we have to wait until on the ground, unless we get an ACARS message, (which we don't).
Both pilots are required to closely monitor the taxi phase, especially at large, complicated and confusing airports, so having one pilot leaving box one to talk on box two is potentially dangerous.
Yeah, there are things we all try to do to mitigate problems as much as possible. If you radio Ramp at 30nm or more out to find your gate and you tell Tower which entry point on landing, by which time the gate has changed.........you are back to square one.
If Tower and Ground had a screen they could glance at* when you vacate the runway and see where your gate is, they could simply issue taxi instructions without the extra "which is your gate" question and answer. clogging up the airwaves. Many other airfields manage to do this, and I assume that KJFK have very experienced ATCOs, so surely not beyond their capability ?
My point is ATC should be directing us, not the other way round.
I usually find KJFK difficult, and assumed it was me being thick, but others are saying they find it difficult too.
*Actually, isn't the gate written on the strip, electronic or otherwise?
If Tower and Ground had a screen they could glance at* when you vacate the runway and see where your gate is, they could simply issue taxi instructions without the extra "which is your gate" question and answer. clogging up the airwaves. Many other airfields manage to do this, and I assume that KJFK have very experienced ATCOs, so surely not beyond their capability ?
My point is ATC should be directing us, not the other way round.
I usually find KJFK difficult, and assumed it was me being thick, but others are saying they find it difficult too.
*Actually, isn't the gate written on the strip, electronic or otherwise?
I've flown out of JFK for 40 yrs. The controllers speak to fast, especially to foreign carriers. Years ago at some airports it seemed like it was a contest to see how fast they could speak on the ATIS recording. Nothing like having to listen multiple times to get all the information. Ridiculous. JFK ground appears to be of the same mindset. If they slowed down slightly they'd have less "say again".