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Close call + ATC link at JFK

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Close call + ATC link at JFK

Old 14th Jan 2020, 04:51
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Close call + ATC link at JFK

https://simpleflying.com/delta-757-jfk-collision/
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 06:15
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I had seen/heard this on youtube:
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 06:40
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Jfk atc think they are doing a hell of a job, but in reality I regularly have “issues” with them. Too much chatter, too much non-standard RT. They snap at you, although operating in your WOCL, as if you are a beginner. Quite insulting really..
Dont have that experience anywhere else, not even in China.
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 07:15
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In this case, it seems tough to blame just the pilot for that dreadful ATC procedure. They tacked an irrelevant question onto the end of a critical hold-short instruction and ignored the lack of a read-back.
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 08:52
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Originally Posted by fox niner View Post
Jfk atc think they are doing a hell of a job, but in reality I regularly have “issues” with them. Too much chatter, too much non-standard RT. They snap at you, although operating in your WOCL, as if you are a beginner. Quite insulting really..
Dont have that experience anywhere else, not even in China.
The biggest issue I encounter at JFK is that the controllers almost never listen to what a pilot is saying back after a clearance.

Numerous times I hear a readback which is clearly wrong but there never is a correction until the airplane goes the wrong way.

To balance this, I had many times where I was impressed by a controller during the chaos of snow/storm, but if they just slow down a bit and listen if their instructions are actually recieved (correctly), things would be soooo much better.
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 09:14
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Because these ATC links generally monitor two or more frequencies, I don't think that the clip above provides the entire exchange between all parties involved.
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 09:43
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so delta 300 heard "cleared to cross" and supposedly read back this instruction? neither happened. big error there
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 10:12
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AndoniP Read my post above yours. That may well be why.
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 10:26
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They snap at you, although operating in your WOCL
The day when a major accident occurs is unfortunately just around the corner. And the two biggest contributors will be a hasty and bad tempered ATC and European/Asian pilots operating at their bedtime-o'clock.
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 10:43
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Originally Posted by double_barrel View Post
In this case, it seems tough to blame just the pilot for that dreadful ATC procedure. They tacked an irrelevant question onto the end of a critical hold-short instruction and ignored the lack of a read-back.
I don't know if the question is irrelevant, since I don't know the operations at the airport.

If anything, stressing "hold short of XXX...." before asking a question, should keep the crew attention on the taxi of the aircraft, while answering the question, is not that bad a tactic.

The ICAO and the EASA action plan for the prevention of runway incursions, both have good pointers, they both stress that ATC clearances should be given before taxi, and if any changes, (indirectly) wait until the aircraft is at the holding point before giving them, using the "hold position" first, again to stress it.

https://www.icao.int/safety/RunwaySa...al_prev_RI.pdf
https://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/4093.pdf

So you can argue for both, since the question was not a clearance.

The ATCO did not challenge the lack of readback.

On another note, 2 aircraft operating on the same runway on 2 different frequencies..... I personally don't like that, cause beside looking down the runway before crossing, it also givesthe pilots the option of hearing what is going on on said runway.
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 10:48
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Originally Posted by AndoniP View Post
so delta 300 heard "cleared to cross" and supposedly read back this instruction? neither happened. big error there
My guess is the pilots are talking about a previous instruction, whereas the controller is talking about the one we can hear from the tape.

We are missing the part from where the aircraft was given it's initial taxi instruction after landing, so.... bad youtube video not showing the entirety of the communication.

It also sounds like 2 different voices replying to the controller, so maybe there's a change in communication from one pilot, to the other at some point... but we cannot hear that without the entirety of the communication.
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 10:50
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As a balanced observation id agree with the standard of control relating JFK. Notwithstanding it is a very busy field, with numerous runways, with other airfields in close proximity. that said and generally speaking from my own experiences operating in and out of JFK that there does seem to be a bit of a gung ho attitude going on.

An oft observed comment being that it would be a good idea to second elements of the JFK team into the London TMA and stints at Gatwick and Heathrow to try to encourage a more balanced and tolerant operation amid a busy and congested zone and airfields

I do understand ther JFK controllers have a very busy and difficult job but there certainly room for improvement in some areas of the overall operation.

In this particular case, ultimately the fault lies with the crew. however the controller side certainly was a factor.
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 10:52
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I can't answer for the pilot, but I had to replay the original call from ATC several times before I understood it. Her speech was so quick it was hard to hear just what was said. If I had been the crew of the subject aircraft I'd have probably responded "say again" and then maybe even "say again slowly".

All that said, there was definitely no "cleared to cross" in the video/audio in post 2.
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 11:01
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Originally Posted by Avman View Post
Because these ATC links generally monitor two or more frequencies, I don't think that the clip above provides the entire exchange between all parties involved.
Yes, there are comments below the video on Youtube that criticise the deceiving editing of the video.
Any comments here on 'non read-back' are now irrelevant.
Link to full recording from Youtube commenter:
"Larry Keene:
He actually DID readback the "Hold Short" instructions. Someone above posted this link to an extended version of the recording. The readback is right around 3:45"
I can't post a link so search the comment above for his link.


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Old 14th Jan 2020, 11:31
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Used to brief crew before TOD - "they talk quicker than I can listen"
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 11:33
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Originally Posted by golfbananajam View Post
All that said, there was definitely no "cleared to cross" in the video/audio in post 2.
Like I said in my previous post, it could be in the initial taxi instruction given after landing. That part is not included in the youtube video, hence.... bad video.
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 14:36
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Originally Posted by jmmoric View Post
Like I said in my previous post, it could be in the initial taxi instruction given after landing. That part is not included in the youtube video, hence.... bad video.
I listened to the full recording on the liveatc site. The quality is quite poor, so I'm not entirely sure this is what was said, but this is what I've heard about a minute earlier:

Tower: Delta 300 exit Juliet hold short of runway two two right remain on this frequency.
Delta 300: OK Alpha and Juliet hold short of two two right Delta ... 300
I should mention that this exchange was in the middle of a sequence of clearances to cross 22R given to 5 other Delta aircraft that were holding short of 22R.
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 15:34
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Originally Posted by jack-daw View Post
Yes, there are comments below the video on Youtube that criticise the deceiving editing of the video.
Any comments here on 'non read-back' are now irrelevant.
Link to full recording from Youtube commenter:
"Larry Keene:
He actually DID readback the "Hold Short" instructions. Someone above posted this link to an extended version of the recording. The readback is right around 3:45"
I can't post a link so search the comment above for his link.
The suggested full recording;

https://archive-server.liveatc.net/k..._Fvu_qyJsHYyJ0

However, this part is missing the whole “what gate do you have” transmission.

So 22L controller clears Delta 300 to proceed on Juliet, I assume after vacating the runway, then hold short of runway 22R. This is read back correctly by Delta 300. The next part in the “full recording” is where they are getting yelled at for already crossing.

So the “hold short and what is your gate” transmission would be a repeat of an already given and acknowledged clearance if my timeline is correct. Possibly not read back because of that. Also possibly the trigger for one of them to be sure that they’re cleared to cross as you kind of expect clearances in a certain sequence. After a hold short clearance you are naturally primed to expect a cleared to cross clearance.

Human factors and the rapid fire non-standard ATC... bad combination. I’m sure the controllers can manage a bunch but it would be great if they could do so in a standardized manner at an airport like JFK. I’d also expect a handoff to the 22R controller for the crossing, seems like the smarter way to handle that.
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 15:46
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Sorry, but the above live ATC link posted by Intrance is not the full uninterrupted transcript of a single frequency. It is, as mentioned by Avman, a combination of frequencies.
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Old 14th Jan 2020, 16:06
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Just to be clear, I did not suggest anywhere that it was a single frequency recording. It is simply the archived LiveATC combined recording that does feature a readback by Delta 300 to hold short, but somehow does not feature the "hold short and what is your gate" transmission from the 22L controller. If the Delta did get a clearance to cross like they said they received and read back, it would have been in a rougly 1 minute gap between their read back of the hold short clearance and the actually crossing.
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