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Even More Black Eye: Qatar Airways Flies Brand New Boeing 787-9ís Back To The US

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Even More Black Eye: Qatar Airways Flies Brand New Boeing 787-9ís Back To The US

Old 29th Dec 2019, 18:54
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Originally Posted by kiwi grey View Post
I thought legal "delivery" took place at the factory, not at the customer's home airport.

I'm sure there's a lot more to this than meets the eye
Most peculiar
Absolutely. Not only that but with such an order there will have been a Qatar Buyer on site for the duration of the build to be part of the sign-off team before departure of the finished aircraft with the shiny "car keys".

This thread is fake news.
Let's move on.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 19:34
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While I'm no expert in Qatar tax laws, it's actually not uncommon for an operator to request aircraft delivery - even if incomplete - before a certain date. This allows the operator to take advantage of certain tax loopholes.

About 30 years ago - when Boeing was busy certifying the 767 with PW4000 engines - Lauda agreed to buy one of the flight test aircraft. BUT, Lauda needed to 'take delivery' before a certain date - which was prior to cert - to take advantage of an Austrian investment tax credit (or something along that line). So right in the middle of the flight test program, they flew the 767 to Austria. Papers were signed, pictures were taken, money changed hands, and then they flew the 767 back to Seattle and carried on with the flight test program.

When $millions in tax breaks are at stake, the cost of a round trip to satisfy the tax man is minor.

Last edited by tdracer; 29th Dec 2019 at 21:44.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 20:01
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I guess you can write it off one year earlier by taking delivery in late 2019 instead of early 2020. If the company was making profit I could understand that ... the spreaded rationale however is, well, odd.
And that the planes travelled forth and back can be taken as a fact. So definetly worthwile talking about.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 20:42
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For those with experience on receiving an aircraft from the production line; is the delivery always on the airline's home airport or at the manufacturer's facility.

Also how easy is to install those special seat/suits after the aircraft is completed and flow away?
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 20:58
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Originally Posted by Rwy in Sight View Post
For those with experience on receiving an aircraft from the production line; is the delivery always on the airline's home airport or at the manufacturer's facility.

Also how easy is to install those special seat/suits after the aircraft is completed and flow away?

It can be done several ways and this report is typical internet misinformation. I have seen Boeings flown from the 737 delivery line at Boeing Fied right into SEATAC and immediately put into service. Have seen MD1's flown from MJV directly to the home base of the respective airline and seen BBJs flown to PDX so as to avoid US sales tax. No one size fits all, and this writer simply does not know what he is talking about. I cannot imagine that any airline like Qatar does not have a represntive at Boeing to sign off on the finished product prior to the final payments prior to delivery. Some airlines have full time reps stationed at Boeing just to conduct these predelivery ops.

Probably not that hard or time consuming, to install the new seating config.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 21:41
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Originally Posted by Rwy in Sight View Post
For those with experience on receiving an aircraft from the production line; is the delivery always on the airline's home airport or at the manufacturer's facility.

Also how easy is to install those special seat/suits after the aircraft is completed and flow away?
Actual aircraft delivery is highly variable - Boeing has a 'Delivery Center' in Everett Paine Field, and another at Boeing Field (for 737s) - there are sometimes quite elaborate delivery celebrations (several years ago I was at the Everett Delivery Center for a flight test pre-flight, while I was there, there was a very elaborate delivery celebration for an African operator that was taking delivery of it's first 787, complete with dancers decked out in some traditional African dress). Sometimes the handoff occurs at 35k someplace west of Washington state over the Pacific Ocean, and sometimes it occurs at the operators home base. Again, little first hand knowledge, but I suspect tax laws have a lot to do with where the actual 'delivery' takes place. An airline rep always inspects a new aircraft prior to acceptance, and one of their pilots nearly always flies it on the customer acceptance flight (some real small operators will delegate that to the Boeing pilots, but that's rare). The idea that the aircraft left for Qatar without Qatar being fully aware of the condition of the aircraft is quite simply ludicrous...

Interior installation is just as varied - what Boeing delivers to the operator can be anywhere from a complete, certified interior ready for service to a basically bare aircraft aft of the flight deck wall with little more than provisions for the interior installation (I don't recall the exact words, but there is FAA cert paperwork that basically says the aircraft is not certified to carry passengers, that's used when delivery doesn't include a complete interior) . At one time it was common for operators to take delivery in Everett without an interior, they'd tow the aircraft to the south end of Paine Field, and another company would install the interior and certify it via an STC (doesn't happen anymore because that company isn't at Paine anymore - so now they'd have to fly it somewhere else).

In short, Spooky is right, the writer doesn't have a clue (as well as a few posters on this thread).
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 22:30
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 22:54
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>>I cannot imagine that any airline like Qatar does not have a represntive at Boeing to sign off on the finished product prior to the final payments prior to delivery.

Qatar have 4 permanently reserved parking spaces at the front of the Marriott Airport in Toulouse. I guess they are not there to lobby for a Tour de France stage.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 23:20
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Originally Posted by Auxtank View Post
Absolutely. Not only that but with such an order there will have been a Qatar Buyer on site for the duration of the build to be part of the sign-off team before departure of the finished aircraft with the shiny "car keys".

This thread is fake news.
Let's move on.
what's not fake is that line of planes flying back. That's just not normal delivery practice.
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Old 30th Dec 2019, 01:12
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That's just not normal delivery practice
You might want to read post #22.
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Old 30th Dec 2019, 02:48
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At my airline company personnel always travel to the manufacturer and perform an acceptance inspection and check flight before receiving the aircraft.
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Old 30th Dec 2019, 04:48
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Touch and Go

Many years ago- to avoid WA state taxes, they would fly down to portland, get papers ready, and while doing a touch and go, sign appropriate documents.
I knew one of the pilots involved . . .

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Old 30th Dec 2019, 05:11
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Many years ago- to avoid WA state taxes, they would fly down to portland
Have heard of business being conducted 12 miles off the coast, ie in international waters/airspace, to avoid country jurisdictional oversight.
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Old 30th Dec 2019, 05:28
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Many Airbus deliveries from both Toulouse and Hamburg involve an odd dog-leg through UK airspace, presumably for some sort of tax wheeze.
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Old 30th Dec 2019, 05:46
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Originally Posted by cappt View Post
At my airline company personnel always travel to the manufacturer and perform an acceptance inspection and check flight before receiving the aircraft.
Acceptance and Delivery are different things. Acceptance is technical and Delivery is financial and legal.....
And in many instances they do not occur at same location.

.
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Old 30th Dec 2019, 09:04
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Kelvin has it right, except for the type. They thought the A350 qsuites would fit the 787s. The aircraft were delivered to Doha, as per contract and then sent back into storage whilst QR is in 'decision paralysis' mode. They don't have crews ready to fly them anyway.
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Old 30th Dec 2019, 09:11
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These are the first 7 B787-9 for Qatar Airways. For a type which typically delivers 2-3 weeks after first flight, some have been hanging around at Boeing since a first flight in September, while all the rest of the production for others delivers as normal.

My hunch, adding together the various issues discussed above, is that Qatar have contracted separately, not through Boeing, for the cabin fitout, to be installed in the USA, and that the Boeing contract stipulated airframe delivery point in Qatar. Thus when it was apparent the fitout contractor was not going to be complete by the end of the year they were just flown to Qatar, the airline told "here you are, our bit of the contract complete, sign here", and then flown back. Probably about USD 1 bn then transferred. Boeing need all the cash they can get at present.
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Old 30th Dec 2019, 09:22
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Maybe one of "Baldrick's cunning plans"?
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Old 30th Dec 2019, 10:50
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Not many business's run their financial year Jan-Dec.

Apr-Mar is commonly used.

Tax years are similar.
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Old 30th Dec 2019, 12:09
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There is that small insignificant country between Canada and Mexico that proves you wrong - tax year is January to December
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