Plane crashes near Kazakhstan airport

[lalbak]

Originally Posted by cappt

Ok copy that, different aircraft. Yes on the CR700/900 that have leading edge devices this AD revision requiring wing heat for taxi is not required.

Actually, taxiing with wing anti-ice on is not allowed since it can end up boiling the fluid and therfore render the fluid no longer usable.
With the 700/900/1000 wing anti ice will not switch off automatically after lift off.

[cappt]

Originally Posted by lalbak

Actually, taxiing with wing anti-ice on is not allowed since it can end up boiling the fluid and therfore render the fluid no longer usable.
With the 700/900/1000 wing anti ice will not switch off automatically after lift off.

That's correct, if you've anti-iced with type 4 wing heat is not to be turned on until just prior to beginning the take off roll.

Not to derail this thread anymore but the point is to eliminate any chance of undetected frost or ice by requiring wing heat be turned on during taxi to the runway anytime temp is 5 deg C or less, even on a sunny clear day. This airworthiness directive was put out in 2008 by Canada and Bombardier, the manufacturer of the CRJ.

[liider]

Four parts of takeoff video appeared on Youtube.

You Tube

https://youtu.be/8qYW-hlWUd4
https://youtu.be/6VmkzrhQlVk

[ManaAdaSystem]

Originally Posted by liider

Four parts of takeoff video appeared on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23_05Us4Qww
https://youtu.be/8qYW-hlWUd4
https://youtu.be/6VmkzrhQlVk

Doesn’t look like fog to me.
Lack of lift or lack of thrust, or both.
They had plenty of space to abort this takeoff, but did not. I’m not impressed.

[BRUpax]

They had plenty of space to abort this takeoff, but did not. I’m not impressed.

Do you think so? I'm no pilot but looking at the video all appears normal until they actually rotate, at which point there's very little time (at least to me) to maintain control and safely stop on the runway.

[UltraFan]

Originally Posted by BRUpax

Do you think so? I'm no pilot but looking at the video all appears normal until they actually rotate, at which point there's very little time (at least to me) to maintain control and safely stop on the runway.

"Safely" would be a question of luck. They could've overrun it. But it's still better than slamming the machine into bricks.

I'm confused by the videos. Oscillations started as soon as they rotated. They had a huge bank to the left, then they leveled off and seemed to actually touch the runway, and then went up again. Why retract LG before they had positive and consistent climb? Startle time should've been minimal since this is take-off and both pilots (or is there more?) should be "on high alert" about their surroundings. I just can't understand what I see on the videos.

[gearlever]

Originally Posted by BRUpax

Do you think so? I'm no pilot but looking at the video all appears normal until they actually rotate, at which point there's very little time (at least to me) to maintain control and safely stop on the runway.

Very difficult decision even on a 4.400 meters/14,400 feet runway.
Only a few seconds to realize what's going on.

[BRUpax]

"Safely" would be a question of luck. They could've overrun it. But it's still better than slamming the machine into bricks.

My point is that as soon as they lost control (immediately after rotation), and that being the moment the problem became apparent, I would very much doubt that they had any directional control at that point.

[fokkerjet]

Fokker recommended the use of "the largest flapsetting that is permissible by take-off weight / altitude / temperature conditions", TOGA thrust, slow rotation at Vr to 10* pitch attitude, gear up with a positive rate of climb and "DO NOT EXCEED 10 DEGREES PITCH UNTIL AIRSPEED IS ABOVE V2+20 kts. When above V2 +20 kts, slowly increase the pitch attitude, keeping the speed above V2 +20 kts...retract flaps at or above Vfr +20 kts.

The on-ground wing leading edge system is automatically activated when either engine anti-ice system switched ON. ...the system was designed to keep the leading edges just above freezing...

[WBryanH]

New vid from the same source as the four that liider posted above. This one shows pre-flight prep on what is presumably the accident Fokker, that plane beyond the high-wing twin prop.

The vid starts at 6:58 reported time, 25 minutes before the crash. Spraying the control surfaces starts near at that time, and continues for ~3.5 minutes.

Best that I can see, they sprayed only the horiz stabs.

Source: Youtube vid titled "1007 de-icing 27 dec 2019"

[WBryanH]

Here's a sixth vid from that same source liider and I are posting from.

Cue to 2:00 to see the Air Astana A321 start its roll. It's in the upper right in the frame, with the small sideways triangle logo on the tail.

The Fokker lines up soon thereafter and begins its roll at 3:50, one minute and 50 seconds later.

Source: Youtube vid titled "On runway 871 and 2100 27 dec"

[Bournemouthair]

CCTV footage

You Tube

[Cool_avion]

wake turbulence??

Originally Posted by WBryanH

Here's a sixth vid from that same source liider and I are posting from.

Cue to 2:00 to see the Air Astana A321 start its roll. It's in the upper right in the frame, with the small sideways triangle logo on the tail.

The Fokker lines up soon thereafter and begins its roll at 3:50, one minute and 50 seconds later.

Source: Youtube vid titled "On runway 871 and 2100 27 dec"

wake turbulence???

[rog747]

Video part 3 is the best one to view all the accident sequence events -

Take Off and rotation, and she then rolls right, then left gaining maybe less than 50 feet in height -
Tail strike, F100 back on the runway, and then it then veers off the runway to the right through 90 degrees, gear looks retracted, slides across the snowy perimeter road through a metal fence, by now going quite slowly, still sliding though, and aircraft still intact, no fire.

Sham about the pesky buildings otherwise they all would have walked away most without a scratch...

[Mad As A Mad Thing]

I’m not so sure the gear is retracted - could’ve been snapped off by the uncontrolled ground contact.

[rog747]

gear up?

Originally Posted by Mad As A Mad Thing

I’m not so sure the gear is retracted - could’ve been snapped off by the uncontrolled ground contact.

It was in the Media reports straight away, and mentioned in AVHerald that the gear was retracted...

Accident: Bek F100 at Almaty on Dec 27th 2019, lost height shortly after takeoff and impacted building after two tailstrikes

[gearlever]

There is an update on AvH with additional data from FDR.

Very strange IMHO......
IAS zero until 33 sec on take off run, thereafter suddenly 148 kt, spurious wind speeds of 96 kt multiple times during T/O, N1 of both eng below 40% at 45 until 54 sec.... spooky.
Bek F100 at Almaty on Dec 27th 2019

[donotdespisethesnake]

On Jan 6th 2020 the airline held another press conference and released a diagram of additional FDR parameters. [..] which prompted the airline to conclude this was the vortex of wake turbulence.

It seems the airline is trying to pass the blame ahead of the official investigation, so I'll put my skeptical hat on.

[Herod]

IAS zero until 33 sec on take off run, thereafter suddenly 148 kt

That's a reject for a start, at least for me. Where does the bit about wake vortex come in? I don't see any preceding aircraft, and there is no previous mention of it.

[Cool_avion]

wake

Originally Posted by Herod

That's a reject for a start, at least for me. Where does the bit about wake vortex come in? I don't see any preceding aircraft, and there is no previous mention of it.

I believe an Astana a321 took off 90 seconds ahead of Bek Air.