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Atlas Air 3591 NTSB Public Docket Opened

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Atlas Air 3591 NTSB Public Docket Opened

Old 28th Jul 2020, 18:43
  #201 (permalink)  
 
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Any more questions with respect to FDR data? I'm able to dig out Graphs better now, but soon this fresh knowledge will fade again,
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Old 28th Jul 2020, 21:36
  #202 (permalink)  
 
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Ray, again thank you.

You are in the engine room doing the hard work, identifying aspects which could form the dots of information; its up to others how they put the dots together to clarify the overall picture.

Even with more focus on the pilot's action, any view would only be speculative; yet there are several recently identified technical issues which would benefit from a NTSB review.

We might never know why the pilots reacted as they did, but the operational environment could be improved; inadvertent GA switching, annunciation, AP overpower characteristic - why no disengagement / trim protection and annunciation, representativeness of simulators.

Re simulator training for illusions; the types of illusion being considered involve acceleration - linear or angular. AFAIR there are no training simulators capable of generating sustained acceleration.
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Old 28th Jul 2020, 21:49
  #203 (permalink)  
 
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* an attention getting * comment - look for the shadows.

A theme in this thread is a belief that FDR visualisations alone will provide understanding of the crews perception and thence behaviour.

Tactile senses contribute to pilots awareness - stick force has been overlooked, and thence the 'feel' of the aircraft including significant trim /AP inputs experienced by the crew were not considered.
Without evidence of the stick forces, the ability and time required for recovery is unknown, excepting that in this instance its appears insufficient. Stick force might be calculated from the FDR, however the erroneous assumption that the AP disengaged, but did not, would complicate the process, particularly for any trim contribution to stick force - direction and magnitude.

Re #198

* an attention getting * comment, yes; a reminder of the need for trim awareness and its powerful control function.

A similarity with Ö No, just a 'shadow'.

For the philosophical, how might we perceive the unseen - look for the shadows.


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Old 28th Jul 2020, 22:02
  #204 (permalink)  

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If you linked to Rostov - a rather appropriate choice - would you do that by saying akin to the NG? That's my shadow ... of a doubt.

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Old 28th Jul 2020, 22:21
  #205 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alf5071h View Post
Re simulator training for illusions; the types of illusion being considered involve acceleration - linear or angular. AFAIR there are no training simulators capable of generating sustained acceleration.
Currently yes. But there's always room for improvement. And it's for safety reasons, so they should gather those few engineers, that remained in this world, and get it done
Well, maybe would work even with existing technology. Full FS are about fooling the senses. If you let them prepare a special illusion session, it might come as close as necessary to give the trainees an idea. And then tell them "it's similar, but can even be much stronger".


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Old 28th Jul 2020, 22:34
  #206 (permalink)  
 
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alf5071h

Yes, I somehow agree. There's one thing to mention.

I focus more on understanding with perspective to improve, identify bad habits and bad tech - like Transport Safety boards
Many other focus more on understanding to judge. Morals, Blame Game, who's the "bad boy", who's the victim, the evil company. Court Room time.

I don't see much to change, improve with respect to control forces, sensations or what you mention those poor souls experienced. So that's again to judge, isn't it?
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Old 5th Aug 2020, 18:15
  #207 (permalink)  
 
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NTSB Final



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Old 5th Aug 2020, 18:51
  #208 (permalink)  
 
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Somehow I'm a bit surprised that NTSB does not at all recommend anything regarding Somatographic Illusion. Not even suggesting to make the community aware or consider refresh knowledge.

NTSB cares to addess "all pilots ... 767/757... awareness of the circumstances of this accident that likely led to the inadvertent activation of the go-around mode.". That's more important?

Rest of suggestions are fine.
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Old 5th Aug 2020, 20:16
  #209 (permalink)  
 
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I guess they didn’t consider it a causal factor. SI is when a strong horizontal acceleration fools the otoliths into believing there is a pitch up. In a GA there is no horizontal acceleration and the pitch up is real.
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Old 5th Aug 2020, 21:29
  #210 (permalink)  
 
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Ten years and counting. Thatís the amount of time that the FAA has taken to implement
a sufficiently robust Pilot Records Database (PRD), as mandated by Congress.
Seems there needs to be a tighter leash on the FAA.
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Old 14th Aug 2020, 19:53
  #211 (permalink)  
 
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So does EASA have anything equivalent to a PRIA report?
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Old 15th Aug 2020, 15:49
  #212 (permalink)  
 
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Probably would be illegal in the EU for privacy reasons. I am actually amazed that Americans seem all for a central database on pilots training records that pretty much anyone could access. Weird. Sound like something out of the USSR...
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Old 15th Aug 2020, 16:04
  #213 (permalink)  
 
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If you ever fill out the paperwork, you’d see why. My understanding is that it won’t be open to the public though. It’s just an overview of your training, and when changing companies, the pilot would give the new company access to (presumably all of) the records. Assume it’ll be something like read-only access to a folder.
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Old 15th Aug 2020, 17:16
  #214 (permalink)  
 
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oceancrosser

FYI: access is pretty restricted. It's not a free for all on the info. The link below gives a history and other info.
https://www.faa.gov/pilots/lic_cert/pria/
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Old 21st Sep 2020, 19:51
  #215 (permalink)  
 
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There has been a pretty good discussion here of Somotagravic Illusion, but there is another aspect that is often underappreciated in flight simulation, and that is the psychological component. In this case it helps to explain the gross over reaction on the part of the FO. Simulators are great in the normal flight envelope, where the brain is working much the same as it would in flight. But the brain works differently in an upset, when a bunch of hormones (cortisol, adrenaline) get dumped into the system and the training platform isn't bolted to the floor. Doing on-aircraft UPRT it is interesting to watch competent, reliable pilots in the normal domain do some pretty interesting stuff that I don't see in the simulator when confronted with an actual upset in flight. The slang terminology is an "amygdala hijack" and you just can't generate that level of surprise or startle in a simulator.
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