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Convair 440 crash on approach to Toledo-Express airport

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Convair 440 crash on approach to Toledo-Express airport

Old 12th Sep 2019, 11:40
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In the late 90s I worked the overnight shift on the ramp in Norfolk, VA (ORF), home of Fordís F-150 production line. Ford was continuously working out the bugs of just-in-time inventory control, and so it was rare for an evening to pass without some classic (if not antique) cargo plane to pull up unannounced with a load of parts. No expense was spared to keep the production line running. The most memorable was a DC-8...taxied in, the pilot opened his cockpit window and dropped a paper grocery bag down to the ramp. I never did learn what was in the bag. It weighed maybe five pounds. Whatever it was, it warranted a DC-8 flight at 2AM.
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Old 12th Sep 2019, 13:34
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Originally Posted by Airmotive View Post
The most memorable was a DC-8...taxied in, the pilot opened his cockpit window and dropped a paper grocery bag down to the ramp. I never did learn what was in the bag.
Emergency donut order?
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Old 12th Sep 2019, 15:00
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Originally Posted by srjumbo747 View Post
Condolences to all concerned.
Is it normal in the US to have pilots over 65 to fly commercially together?
I don't believe there are any age restrictions under Part 125 as long as it remains domestic. This reminds me of a Flying Tigers L1049 accident at KBUR back around 1962.
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Old 12th Sep 2019, 15:47
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Originally Posted by srjumbo747 View Post
Condolences to all concerned.
Is it normal in the US to have pilots over 65 to fly commercially together?
You would have to define normal. Parts 91k, 125 and 135 do not have any age restrictions. But of the ~283 thousand active commercial and ATP pilots in the US there were 46,511 older than 65 the beginning of this year or about 16 percent. So over all.
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Old 12th Sep 2019, 18:48
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Condolences to the families and may the pilots RIP. In looking at their certificates, I wonder if they were ex Air America or Continental Air Services guys.

Last edited by Old Boeing Driver; 12th Sep 2019 at 21:12.
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Old 12th Sep 2019, 18:51
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From the above pictures the direction of the crash appears to have been roughly in the direction of the arrow, which would make it a very steep turn onto final from that position. The flightaware track shows they made a left hand downwind pattern for the runway.

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Old 27th Sep 2019, 13:01
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NTSB preliminary reort. No indication as to what may have happened.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...relim&IType=MA
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Old 28th Sep 2019, 10:58
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A sad event. Condolences to all the families concerned. N24DR in better times.

(Image attributed to Flightaware.)
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Old 28th Sep 2019, 15:46
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A not-helpful statement in the media:

"“I’m surprised it does not have a black box. Obviously, the black box is proved to be an extremely useful tool in aviation investigations and I don’t know if this plane was required to have a black box or not,” said James Hall, a former NTSB board chairman and current managing partner of Hall & Associates in Washington."

https://www.toledoblade.com/local/po...es/20190912111

I'll throw out some possibilities: load/CG shift or PIC medical event on final.
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Old 29th Sep 2019, 06:45
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Originally Posted by MarkerInbound View Post


Under 121 or 125 they would have to have a basic 11 channel FDR. There is no requirement for a CVR. Given the ambient background noise a CVR wouldnít pick up much thatís not on the ATC tapes.

FDR's are not required for recip aircraft, even under Part 121.

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Old 29th Sep 2019, 06:47
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Originally Posted by MarkerInbound View Post
Interesting that both of them have, besides the recip Convair type, DC-3 types, CW-46 types and YS-11 types. Guessing they had worked together for many years.
Not necessarily, DC-3s, Recip Convairs, and C-46's were all pretty common in the non-sked world in the 1960's and 70's even into the 1980's there's a few of each still operating in various places.

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Old 29th Sep 2019, 22:58
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Originally Posted by XB70_Valkyrie View Post

I'll throw out some possibilities: load/CG shift or PIC medical event on final.
Overbanking to get onto final? Looks at the image I posted above. Also 2am in the morning, in their WOCL.

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Old 30th Sep 2019, 10:22
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Originally Posted by Raffles S.A. View Post
Overbanking to get onto final? Looks at the image I posted above. Also 2am in the morning, in their WOCL.
If the turn is balanced and airspeed is constant the only extra force on the load is some g - how much depends on the angle of bank.
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 11:59
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Was this plane piston-engined, as the turbo retrofits were designated CV-660?
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 14:05
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Originally Posted by BRE View Post
Was this plane piston-engined, as the turbo retrofits were designated CV-660?
The only conversion I recall was the Convair 580.

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Old 30th Sep 2019, 14:09
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Originally Posted by BRE View Post
Was this plane piston-engined, as the turbo retrofits were designated CV-660?
Yes it was. Turboprop conversions are Convair 580 / 5800 (Allison 501), Convair 600 / 640 (Rolls Royce Dart) and Convair 540 (Napier Eland)
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 14:14
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yes, it is still piston powered...(see the photo)...and the above mentioned YS-11 is a turboprop, RR Dart powered, never was a recip
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 14:19
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Originally Posted by cats_five View Post
If the turn is balanced and airspeed is constant the only extra force on the load is some g - how much depends on the angle of bank.
and what causes the increase in G load??? increase in angle of attack, if the speed being flown is not increased as a factor of stalling speed (min maneuver) to account for the increased AOA during the bank,or the wing is not unloaded by reducing the pitch (AOA),(thus changing the aircraft's trajectory) the classic stall/spin occurs..one of the most prevalent accident scenarios in general aviation today..

Last edited by ironbutt57; 30th Sep 2019 at 14:26. Reason: spelling
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 16:52
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Originally Posted by A Squared View Post
FDR's are not required for recip aircraft, even under Part 121.
Yes, youíre right. I was remembering we had to upgrade the recorders on one of our CV fleets. It was the 600/640, not the recip.
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 17:18
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Originally Posted by A Squared View Post
Not necessarily, DC-3s, Recip Convairs, and C-46's were all pretty common in the non-sked world in the 1960's and 70's even into the 1980's there's a few of each still operating in various places.
I spent most of the 80s behind 1820s, 1830s and 2800s and went through LRD a lot so I remember that business. Itís just the YS was such an oddball and to have two pilots with the type would be very rare. Piedmont, Reeve Aleutian and Mid Pac were the only major US operators.
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