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RIP Capt. Al Haynes.

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RIP Capt. Al Haynes.

Old 29th Aug 2019, 11:19
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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I was just a FI starting my flying career, building hours in the early ´90s.
One day i got the opportunity to join a lecture AL gave at Langley AFB, VA.

Al introduced himself and let us first see and hear what happened before giving a lecture so simple and strong i have never experienced again, i cannot remember how long it took, but i do remember the tapes, the real recording with ATC!

The moment I heard ATC talking I thought " I think I know this guy!"

AL`s lecture was amazing, will never forget it!
And he did it in so simple words, as it was "normal" to him, just to do HIS and his crew´s job.
I learned a lot that evening, and still carrying it with me, because that lecture you don't get in flight school nor CRM-courses nor from fellow colleagues .....
from nobody!

2 days later I did (i think) an IR training flight with a guy that was an ATC controller in Newport News airport, it was the ATC guy that offered AL even a highway close to the airport in case they could not make it or needed an option (the guy I heard on the tape from AL` lecture)
This ATC guy (sorry bud, i forgot your name, its in my logbook but i am away from home...) left his hectic NY ATC place for a quiet Iowa...... and than got this on his hands....

To the family of AL, I am sorry for your loss, but you all can be proud of him, at least HE showed me some real CRM

RIP AL!

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Old 29th Aug 2019, 11:25
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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May he continue to fly with the eagles
RIP
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 14:46
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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His ingrained attitude, save the aircraft and hence the passengers, led him to try what was proved to be an almost superhuman manoeuvre that sadly led to the loss of 110 lives. How about we just scrap the aircraft and save more lives, indeed, such is the strength of the DC10 that there may well have been no lives lost.
I don't think anything can be more ridiculous than this. Everyone only tries to save lives but that's generally not possible unless the aircraft is kept in one or at least a few pieces. Gliding is also flying. With controls failure with a tendency to roll what Haynes did is nothing short of miracle.
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 15:53
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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You’ve betrayed ignorance of the facts

Originally Posted by rubik101 View Post
RIP Cpt Haynes. Just after the accident, I posted my opinion, which was roundly condemned by most but not everyone, thankfully. I made the point that Iowa is a largely flat state. I suggested that pilot's not unnatural desire to get their stricken aircraft back to an airport and to land on a runway made Cpt Haynes job a lot more difficult than if he had simply looked for the largest cornfield and glided it onto the ground. His ingrained attitude, save the aircraft and hence the passengers, led him to try what was proved to be an almost superhuman manoeuvre that sadly led to the loss of 110 lives. How about we just scrap the aircraft and save more lives, indeed, such is the strength of the DC10 that there may well have been no lives lost. Hypothetical, I know but I thought it bears repeating that there are often more than the obvious outcomes to such situations.
Their control surfaces were damaged and/or fixed in such a way that gliding was impossible. They needed significant power (asymmetric) just to prevent the aircraft from rolling onto its back.
No gliding available.
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 16:12
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bud leon View Post
...and someone Haynes has said is the true hero.
Indeed. And Captain Haynes would always begin his lectures by honoring the 110 people who perished in the accident. Truly a great man. RIP.
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 16:21
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by capngrog View Post
"Glided it onto the ground"? I'm speechless!

Cheers,
Grog
Welcome to PPRuNe. . .. .
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 02:55
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
Welcome to PPRuNe. . .. .

no kidding!!!!!
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 04:26
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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rubik101 said:........Hypothetical, I know but I thought it bears repeating .....
No it doesn't. You're an idiot.
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 07:46
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vilas View Post
I don't think anything can be more ridiculous than this. Everyone only tries to save lives but that's generally not possible unless the aircraft is kept in one or at least a few pieces. Gliding is also flying. With controls failure with a tendency to roll what Haynes did is nothing short of miracle.
+1. Taking the struggling aircraft to place without obstacles and rescues services was the best decision he could have made under the circumstances. Ironical enough, the aircraft did in the end rest in a - CORNFIELD. This crew made a super job.
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 13:43
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Originally Posted by rubik101 View Post
Just after the accident, I posted my opinion, which was roundly condemned by most but not everyone,....
Your a pilot Rubik and I'm not. So on this esteemed forum I should just keep my fat mouth shut, but in this case have you ever wondered why you were the subject of such opprobrium and why you still continue to be? May I suggest you search for the missing logic in your argument since at the moment it seems like you would have taken this deeply stricken airliner and its precious cargo into a remote paddock and because physics is ...well physics, you would have suffered exactly the same low speed controlability issues that Captain Haynes and his erstwhile crew did. Except the unknowns of your cornfield probably would have solicited a much worse outcome and this is before we even consider that you have removed yourself from the life support systems that are encapsulated in our emergency response teams at the airfield. This aircraft should not have still been capable of being flown, but it was. Not to take anything away from Sully or the recent Russian A320 crash, but in contrast these events left the crews with quite flyable aircraft if you accept that flight time was extremely limited. Capt Haynes and the crew of AA96 (an earlieer DC10 cargo door blow out event) were both left struggling with aircraft that no longer wanted to remain in stable flight.The teamwork, ingenuity, personal skills and ability and most importantly, the 'don't give up' attitude, in both of these cases avoided complete disasters and saved far more lives than you give credit for Rubik. I throw your own quote back at you, 'there are often more than the obvious outcomes to such situations".

I'll close the flight deck door on my way out.
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 14:14
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Flight Safety Foundation point out a guest article he wrote back in 1991 for one of their publications: United 232
Ten pages well written and worth reading. And even including some humor:
By then, we were about 14 seconds into the episode, and Bill said to me, “Al, I can’t control the airplane.” [...] I then said the dumbest thing I ever said in my life: “I’ve got it.”
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 16:08
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Rubik: Just a few points about gliding into the ground. To do that in a controlled fashion, you need to have the ability to use your tail control surfaces to flare the plane to a slower speed, And to not stall at this slower speed, you need to be able to deploy your flaps. This plane had none of these options available. They could not slow below 200+ kts and keep the plane in the air. They could not raise the nose other than by increasing engine thrust. While gliding might have been a good idea if they could dump speed down to 120 kts., but they could not. And as we know, KE = (1/2)*m*(v^2). So they had close to 3 times as much kinetic energy to deal with as in a controlled ditching. It was a miracle that they could even get the first impact with wings close to level.
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 16:28
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Pre those God-awful Air Crash Investigation shows. . . . a decent documentary on Sioux City .

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Old 30th Aug 2019, 17:35
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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RIP Captain Haynes.

Blue skies and fair winds.
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 19:12
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Excellent link, noske! An amazing recounting of a petrifying tale from the PIC himself. One must salute Captain Haynes as he and Sully play poker and draw to (and hit!) royal flushes in Heaven, where the Wx is always CAVOK and engines never fail....

- Ed
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 19:42
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cavuman1 View Post
Excellent link, noske! An amazing recounting of a petrifying tale from the PIC himself. One must salute Captain Haynes as he and Sully play poker and draw to (and hit!) royal flushes in Heaven, where the Wx is always CAVOK and engines never fail....

- Ed
I don’t doubt Captain Bob Welliver will be on hand to join the party to welcome Captain Haynes.
Respect
David
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 23:59
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lord Farringdon View Post
Your a pilot Rubik and I'm not. So on this esteemed forum I should just keep my fat mouth shut, but in this case have you ever wondered why you were the subject of such opprobrium and why you still continue to be? May I suggest you search for the missing logic in your argument since at the moment it seems like you would have taken this deeply stricken airliner and its precious cargo into a remote paddock and because physics is ...well physics, you would have suffered exactly the same low speed controlability issues that Captain Haynes and his erstwhile crew did. Except the unknowns of your cornfield probably would have solicited a much worse outcome and this is before we even consider that you have removed yourself from the life support systems that are encapsulated in our emergency response teams at the airfield. This aircraft should not have still been capable of being flown, but it was. Not to take anything away from Sully or the recent Russian A320 crash, but in contrast these events left the crews with quite flyable aircraft if you accept that flight time was extremely limited. Capt Haynes and the crew of AA96 (an earlieer DC10 cargo door blow out event) were both left struggling with aircraft that no longer wanted to remain in stable flight.The teamwork, ingenuity, personal skills and ability and most importantly, the 'don't give up' attitude, in both of these cases avoided complete disasters and saved far more lives than you give credit for Rubik. I throw your own quote back at you, 'there are often more than the obvious outcomes to such situations".

I'll close the flight deck door on my way out.

very well said, you have better "aviation judgment" than Rubik, if indeed he is a pilot...(hopefully he is not)
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Old 31st Aug 2019, 00:18
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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A true American hero, Capt Haynes, Capt Dennis Fitch (RIP), First Officer Bill Records and Flight Engineer (Dudley Dvorak, I believe) all worked as a team to do the best they could and made a truly superhuman effort. The co-operation between Haynes and Fitch ranks as one of the most outstanding examples of CRM you'd see. RIP Captain Haynes, you excelled.
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Old 31st Aug 2019, 05:22
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by criticalmass View Post
A true American hero, Capt Haynes, Capt Dennis Fitch (RIP), First Officer Bill Records and Flight Engineer (Dudley Dvorak, I believe) all worked as a team to do the best they could and made a truly superhuman effort. The co-operation between Haynes and Fitch ranks as one of the most outstanding examples of CRM you'd see. RIP Captain Haynes, you excelled.


yes indeed....
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Old 31st Aug 2019, 10:32
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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SLF here. Reading the CVR transcript http://www.tailstrike.com/190789.pdf, there was initially an (unnamed) Captain riding in the jumpseat, who contributed early on to getting the aircraft under some degree of control. He later gave way to Capt Fitch and then went to sit back in the cabin. Did he survive the subsequent landing?
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