Suspected drink drivers again - surely not?-
It's another check that just adds more misery in trying to get to the aircraft, the security screening in some countries is already a right pain in the backside, the last thing we need are more checks.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfyankeesierra
Not mentioning this as an excuse, but some European layovers must be hard for Americans.
When I (as an European) am Stateside, in the evenings the Jetlag sometimes makes me too tired to stand up, let alone hold a beer. In the Far East, otoh, in the evenings I have so much energy that I am glad to have only a few hours sleep before a morning departure back home.
So while my personal chances to be over the limit in the US are zero without even thinking about it, in the East I have to be consciously aware of limits when, if or how much to drink.
I guess that works the same for Americans in Europe.
While absolutely disapproving drinking and flying, and recognizing problematic use, I also see a bigger risk for honest (and stupid) mistakes for them overhere.
Why would you drink anything on a layover?
Originally Posted by golfyankeesierra
Not mentioning this as an excuse, but some European layovers must be hard for Americans.
When I (as an European) am Stateside, in the evenings the Jetlag sometimes makes me too tired to stand up, let alone hold a beer. In the Far East, otoh, in the evenings I have so much energy that I am glad to have only a few hours sleep before a morning departure back home.
So while my personal chances to be over the limit in the US are zero without even thinking about it, in the East I have to be consciously aware of limits when, if or how much to drink.
I guess that works the same for Americans in Europe.
While absolutely disapproving drinking and flying, and recognizing problematic use, I also see a bigger risk for honest (and stupid) mistakes for them overhere.
Why would you drink anything on a layover?
And some of us would like to enjoy a beer or a good glass of wine once in a while.
My point was that because of the timezones, jetlag and EB departure times it is much easier for an American pilot in Europe to fall in a pit of his own making and drink one too many..
The entirety of human history demonstrates this regardless of occupation. But, you have to allow for those who are not reckless but have a disease which alcoholism is. Not trying to make excuses or be PC (heaven knows I'm not THAT) but it's a complex subject. Just sayin'.
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bubba,
I would not particularly be inclined to agree that policies from 3rd world countries are the proper solution to issues here if that is offered as justification for whatever the Perfumed Princes in DC should/might do.
Of course, we long ago abandoned the Fourth Amendment as it might relate to airline pilots. If we keep poking the bear with stuff like this, we'll get what we asked for. Well, YOU will...I won't. They can't get a me any longer. Maybe Lizzy Dole will come out of retirement to help with the "solution".
The industry need not despair since there's no level of abuse pilots will not meekly submit to.
I would not particularly be inclined to agree that policies from 3rd world countries are the proper solution to issues here if that is offered as justification for whatever the Perfumed Princes in DC should/might do.
Of course, we long ago abandoned the Fourth Amendment as it might relate to airline pilots. If we keep poking the bear with stuff like this, we'll get what we asked for. Well, YOU will...I won't. They can't get a me any longer. Maybe Lizzy Dole will come out of retirement to help with the "solution".
The industry need not despair since there's no level of abuse pilots will not meekly submit to.
I Have Control
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Drunk?
Review the level, make it 0.4, and make checks in the crew room mandatory. `There will be no more accidents due to "drunk" pilots, no more horrible media drivel, and pilots can relax and enjoy a beer 10 hours before report. Everyone's happy.
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Might be the strength of beer also. 4/5 pints of American beer finishing 12 hours before flying and you’re good to go at 0 the next morning. 4/5 pints of some of the nicer Ales/Lagers particularly the craft stuff around Glasgow, not so much.
I remember previous company had similar issues in Belgium. No one did anything untoward/illegal but after a few boisterous room parties a gentle reminder that most of the beer is 8/9% not 4/5% made a few suddenly think.
I remember previous company had similar issues in Belgium. No one did anything untoward/illegal but after a few boisterous room parties a gentle reminder that most of the beer is 8/9% not 4/5% made a few suddenly think.
Breathalyzers are screening devices with some accuracy flaws (name a device that doesn't have flaws). That inaccuracy may win you a blood test. In the meantime, you're guilty until proven innocent...and still get to be that guy pulled off his flight for being "drunk" even when you weren't.
But if people are happy being treated like that I guess I'm happy for them.
But if people are happy being treated like that I guess I'm happy for them.
As written above by another participant: in my understand you are not guilty until proven otherwise. Not the other way around. That's why security checks for crew are stupid, too.
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Firstly, if they are not regularly calibrated they are of little use.
Secondly, they only indicate the presence of alcohol. They are not used to "measure" the amount of alcohol merely to indicate its presence.
In some countries this means an arrest and conveyed to a "testing" facility. In others, it is accompany.
Problematic is the "mission creep" where increasingly the powers of detection and apprehension are no longer the civil power (police)
Curiously absent is airline management, who in efforts to squeeze "efficiency" from flight crew, reduce rest periods to statutory minimum, increase roster TOD to maximum. Circadian rhythm disturbance and sleep opportunity is irrelevant to them. Comfortably, in their own timezone, they enjoy whatever substance takes their fancy.
Whatever happened to the old "8 hours bottle to throttle" rule? Many years ago a BA 747 Captain was found to be intoxicated on the flight deck, so they performed an experiment with him in the sim and found he flew better pissed than sober!
If this subject was considered scientifically, a one size fits all blood alcohol concentration isn't a reliable indicator of impairment. Experienced long haul pilots are seasoned drinkers, so their tolerance levels of alcohol intoxication aren't the same as someone new to the job with no tolerance to alcohol. Of course, just as with the media, Government nannies don't like spoiling a good story with the facts, and will never admit that it's mostly their hare-brained rules and regulations that drive most people to drink in the first place in an attempt to deal with the bull****.
If this subject was considered scientifically, a one size fits all blood alcohol concentration isn't a reliable indicator of impairment. Experienced long haul pilots are seasoned drinkers, so their tolerance levels of alcohol intoxication aren't the same as someone new to the job with no tolerance to alcohol. Of course, just as with the media, Government nannies don't like spoiling a good story with the facts, and will never admit that it's mostly their hare-brained rules and regulations that drive most people to drink in the first place in an attempt to deal with the bull****.
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European beer, on average, has slightly more alcohol than U.S. beer. But it’s less than people think. Maybe 10%. So blaming it on ‘European beer’ is only true if they blew a 0.022.
https://gunaxin.com/american-beer-eu...-really-weaker
https://gunaxin.com/american-beer-eu...-really-weaker
Many years ago a BA 747 Captain was found to be intoxicated on the flight deck, so they performed an experiment with him in the sim and found he flew better pissed than sober!
Never heard of that incident and subsequent experiment so just like Airbubba I'd be very interested in a reference..or at least some idea of how long ago it is supposed to have happened....
No Airbubba and others. I heard this back before computers existed and well before our current obsession with links to authoritative references so we don't have to think for ourselves. There is plenty of evidence in my post to make an informed decision, aka deduced reckoning.
Sometime around 1990 is when I heard it, and I don't know exactly when it happened, but must have been after BA introduced B747's. I heard this in Australia, and since it happened in the UK, it might have taken some time to filter down to a flying school in Sydney.