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MAX’s Return Delayed by FAA Reevaluation of 737 Safety Procedures

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MAX’s Return Delayed by FAA Reevaluation of 737 Safety Procedures

Old 1st Jun 2019, 20:13
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Smythe View Post
article from NYT on the foundation of MCAS...very interesting

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/01/b...max-crash.html
If they needed to have G-force sensors removed, but still needed to have an AoA safeguard, why not attach the gyros to the system? Does 737 have gyroscopes? That would be a safeguard that won't affect slow-speed anti-stall activation but would still allow MCAS to stay quiet if AoA sensors failed.

Or am I talking rubbish?
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 20:27
  #102 (permalink)  

 
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The excellent Roger Latham has this offering in Private Eye




airsound
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 20:45
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Salute!

Excuse me, mister hector , and sorry to not refer to those switches on the control column that most of us refer to as "manual electric trim switches" as opposed to cranking that wheel on the center console.

Most of us are also fully aware of the numerous ways Hal can trim the stab, and we have even looked at and commented on the electrical wiring for the MAX with MCAS.. As Paul Simon said in a song, "there must be 50 ways to......",

In all three MCAS incidents the "manual electric trim switches" worked and countered the rogue MCAS trim commands. All three, according to the FDR traces. And one crew went manual real early whether they understood what was wrong or not ( their squawk comment was "STS working backwards", and you can look it up on post 2,56x or whatever).

The beef with the MCAS implementation is that the corrective procedure for "runaway trim/MCAS/x" disables those column switches that worked on all three incidents. GASP!!! I don't like it, and I would have raised a stink if flying a route in those planes.

@smythe...... a great New York Slimes link and maybe even more damning evidence for the juries to consider in the upcoming lawsuits, ya think?

Gums sends...
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 20:48
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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gums
I just have a hard time with Boeing not keeping the manual electric trim operating when MCAS does its trick.
Originally Posted by hec7or View Post
gums

sorry to be a pedant, but the B737 has manual trim, aileron trim, rudder trim, main electric trim, auto trim, mach trim, and speed trim - (of which MCAS is a subsystem)

there is no such thing as manual electric trim
I suspect gums was referring to the change in the trim cutout switches from NG > MAX, likely he meant pilot thumb switch trim by 'manual electric trim'

NG one switch disables all automatic trim inputs, the other disables ALL including pilot electric trim inputs.

MAX either switch disables ALL electric trim.

Reverting to the NG configuration 'might' be one way out of the stuck trim question.

Last edited by MurphyWasRight; 1st Jun 2019 at 20:49. Reason: NH >NG
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 21:05
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Boeing Built Deadly Assumptions Into 737 Max, Blind to a Late Design Change - NYT

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/01/b...max-crash.html

Boeing Built Deadly Assumptions Into 737 Max, Blind to a Late Design Change

By Jack Nicas, Natalie Kitroeff, David Gelles and James Glanz
June 1, 2019

SEATTLE — The fatal flaws with Boeing’s 737 Max can be traced to a breakdown late in the plane’s development, when test pilots, engineers and regulators were left in the dark about a fundamental overhaul to an automated system that would ultimately play a role in two crashes.

A year before the plane was finished, Boeing made the system more aggressive and riskier. While the original version relied on data from at least two types of sensors, the ultimate used just one, leaving the system without a critical safeguard. In both doomed flights, pilots struggled as a single damaged sensor sent the planes into irrecoverable nose-dives within minutes, killing 346 people and prompting regulators around the world to ground the Max.

But many people involved in building, testing and approving the system, known as MCAS, said they hadn’t fully understood the changes. Current and former employees at Boeing and the Federal Aviation Administration who spoke with The New York Times said they had assumed the system relied on more sensors and would rarely, if ever, activate. Based on those misguided assumptions, many made critical decisions, affecting design, certification and training.

“It doesn’t make any sense,” said a former test pilot who worked on the Max. “I wish I had the full story.”

While prosecutors and lawmakers try to piece together what went wrong, the current and former employees point to the single, fateful decision to change the system, which led to a series of design mistakes and regulatory oversights. As Boeing rushed to get the plane done, many of the employees say, they didn’t recognize the importance of the decision. They described a compartmentalized approach, each of them focusing on a small part of the plane. The process left them without a complete view of a critical and ultimately dangerous system.

The company also played down the scope of the system to regulators. Boeing never disclosed the revamp of MCAS to Federal Aviation Administration officials involved in determining pilot training needs, according to three agency officials. When Boeing asked to remove the description of the system from the pilot’s manual, the F.A.A. agreed. As a result, most Max pilots did not know about the software until after the first crash, in October.

“Boeing has no higher priority than the safety of the flying public,” a company spokesman, Gordon Johndroe, said in a statement.

He added that Boeing and regulators had followed standard procedures. “The F.A.A. considered the final configuration and operating parameters of MCAS during Max certification, and concluded that it met all certification and regulatory requirements,” Mr. Johndroe said.

At first, MCAS — Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System — wasn’t a very risky piece of software. The system would trigger only in rare conditions, nudging down the nose of the plane to make the Max handle more smoothly during high-speed moves. And it relied on data from multiple sensors measuring the plane’s acceleration and its angle to the wind, helping to ensure that the software didn’t activate erroneously.

Then Boeing engineers reconceived the system, expanding its role to avoid stalls in all types of situations. They allowed the software to operate throughout much more of the flight. They enabled it to aggressively push down the nose of the plane. And they used only data about the plane’s angle, removing some of the safeguards.

The disasters might have been avoided, if employees and regulators had a better understanding of MCAS.

A test pilot who originally advocated for the expansion of the system didn’t understand how the changes affected its safety. Safety analysts said they would have acted differently if they had known it used just one sensor. Regulators didn’t conduct a formal safety assessment of the new version of MCAS.

The current and former employees, many of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the continuing investigations, said that after the first crash, they were stunned to discover MCAS relied on a single sensor.

“That’s nuts,” said an engineer who helped design MCAS.

“I’m shocked,” said a safety analyst who scrutinized it.

“To me, it seems like somebody didn’t understand what they were doing,” said an engineer who assessed the system’s sensors.

MCAS Is Born
In 2012, the chief test pilot for the Max had a problem.

During the early development of the 737 Max, the pilot, Ray Craig, a silver-haired retired Navy airman, was trying out high-speed situations on a flight simulator, like maneuvers to avoid an obstacle or to escape a powerful vortex from another plane. While such moves might never be necessary for the pilot of a passenger plane, the F.A.A. requires that a jet handle well in those situations.

But the plane wasn’t flying smoothly, partly because of the Max’s bigger engines. To fix the issue, Boeing decided to use a piece of software. The system was meant to work in the background, so pilots effectively wouldn’t know it was there.

Mr. Craig, who had been with Boeing since 1988, didn’t like it, according to one person involved in the testing. An old-school pilot, he eschewed systems that take control from pilots and would have preferred an aerodynamic fix such as vortex generators, thin fins on the wings. But engineers who tested the Max design in a wind tunnel weren’t convinced they would work, the person said.

Mr. Craig relented. Such high-speed situations were so rare that he figured the software would never actually kick in.

To ensure it didn’t misfire, engineers initially designed MCAS to trigger when the plane exceeded at least two separate thresholds, according to three people who worked on the 737 Max. One involved the plane’s angle to the wind, and the other involved so-called G-force, or the force on the plane that typically comes from accelerating.

The Max would need to hit an exceedingly high G-force that passenger planes would probably never experience. For the jet’s angle, the system took data from the angle-of-attack sensor. The sensor, several inches long, is essentially a small wind vane affixed to the jet’s fuselage.

Adding More Power
On a rainy day in late January 2016, thousands of Boeing employees gathered at a runway next to the 737 factory in Renton, Wash. They cheered as the first Max, nicknamed the Spirit of Renton, lifted off for its maiden test flight.

“The flight was a success,” Ed Wilson, the new chief test pilot for the Max, said in a news release at the time. Mr. Wilson, who had tested Boeing fighter jets, had replaced Mr. Craig the previous year.

“The 737 Max just felt right in flight, giving us complete confidence that this airplane will meet our customers’ expectations,” he said.

But a few weeks later, Mr. Wilson and his co-pilot began noticing that something was off, according to a person with direct knowledge of the flights. The Max wasn’t handling well when nearing stalls at low speeds.

In a meeting at Boeing Field in Seattle, Mr. Wilson told engineers that the issue would need to be fixed. He and his co-pilot proposed MCAS, the person said.

The change didn’t elicit much debate in the group, which included just a handful of people. It was considered “a run-of-the-mill adjustment,” according to the person. Instead, the group mostly discussed the logistics of how MCAS would be used in the new scenarios.

“I don’t recall ever having any real debates over whether it was a good idea or not,” the person said.

The change proved pivotal. Expanding the use of MCAS to lower-speed situations required removing the G-force threshold. MCAS now needed to work at low speeds so G-force didn’t apply.

The change meant that a single angle-of-attack sensor was the lone guard against a misfire. Although modern 737 jets have two angle-of-attack sensors, the final version of MCAS took data from just one.

Using MCAS at lower speeds also required increasing the power of the system. When a plane is flying slowly, flight controls are less sensitive, and far more movement is needed to steer. Think of turning a car’s steering wheel at 20 miles an hour versus 70.

The original version of MCAS could move the stabilizer — the part of the tail that controls the vertical direction of the jet — a maximum of about 0.6 degrees in about 10 seconds. The new version could move the stabilizer up to 2.5 degrees in 10 seconds.

Test pilots aren’t responsible for dealing with the ramifications of such changes. Their job is to ensure the plane handles smoothly. Other colleagues are responsible for making the changes, and still others for assessing their impact on safety.

Boeing declined to say whether the changes had prompted a new internal safety analysis.

While the F.A.A. officials in charge of training didn’t know about the changes, another arm of the agency involved in certification did. But it did not conduct a safety analysis on the changes.

The F.A.A. had already approved the previous version of MCAS. And the agency’s rules didn’t require it to take a second look because the changes didn’t affect how the plane operated in extreme situations.

“The F.A.A. was aware of Boeing’s MCAS design during the certification of the 737 Max,” the agency said in a statement. “Consistent with regulatory requirements, the agency evaluated data and conducted flight tests within the normal flight envelope that included MCAS activation in low-speed stall and other flight conditions.”

‘External Events’
After engineers installed the second version of MCAS, Mr. Wilson and his co-pilot took the 737 Max for a spin.

The flights were uneventful. They tested two potential failures of MCAS: a high-speed maneuver in which the system doesn’t trigger, and a low-speed stall when it activates but then freezes. In both cases, the pilots were able to easily fly the jet, according to a person with knowledge of the flights.

In those flights, they did not test what would happen if MCAS activated as a result of a faulty angle-of-attack sensor — a problem in the two crashes.

Boeing engineers did consider such a possibility in their safety analysis of the original MCAS. They classified the event as “hazardous,” one rung below the most serious designation of catastrophic, according to two people. In regulatory-speak, it meant that MCAS could trigger erroneously less often than once in 10 million flight hours.

That probability may have underestimated the risk of so-called external events that have damaged sensors in the past, such as collisions with birds, bumps from ramp stairs or mechanics’ stepping on them. While part of the assessment considers such incidents, they are not included in the probability. Investigators suspect the angle-of-attack sensor was hit on the doomed Ethiopian Airlines flight in March.

Bird strikes on angle-of-attack sensors are relatively common.

A Times review of two F.A.A. databases found hundreds of reports of bent, cracked, sheared-off, poorly installed or otherwise malfunctioning angle-of-attack sensors on commercial aircraft over three decades.

Since 1990, one database has recorded 1,172 instances when birds — meadowlarks, geese, sandpipers, pelicans and turkey vultures, among others — damaged sensors of various kinds, with 122 strikes on angle-of-attack vanes. The other database showed 85 problems with angle-of-attack sensors on Boeing aircraft, including 38 on 737s since 1995.

And the public databases don’t necessarily capture the extent of incidents involving angle-of-attack sensors, since the F.A.A. has additional information. “I feel confidence in saying that there’s a lot more that were struck,” said Richard Dolbeer, a wildlife specialist who has spent over 20 years studying the issue at the United States Department of Agriculture, which tracks the issue for the F.A.A.

A Simple Request
On March 30, 2016, Mark Forkner, the Max’s chief technical pilot, sent an email to senior F.A.A. officials with a seemingly innocuous request: Would it be O.K. to remove MCAS from the pilot’s manual?

The officials, who helped determine pilot training needs, had been briefed on the original version of MCAS months earlier. Mr. Forkner and Boeing never mentioned to them that MCAS was in the midst of an overhaul, according to the three F.A.A. officials.

Under the impression that the system was relatively benign and rarely used, the F.A.A. eventually approved Mr. Forkner’s request, the three officials said.

Boeing wanted to limit changes to the Max, from previous versions of the 737. Anything major could have required airlines to spend millions of dollars on additional training. Boeing, facing competitive pressure from Airbus, tried to avoid that.

Mr. Forkner, a former F.A.A. employee, was at the front lines of this effort. As the chief technical pilot, he was the primary liaison with the F.A.A. on training and worked on the pilot’s manual.

“The pressure on us,” said Rick Ludtke, a cockpit designer on the Max, “was huge.”

“And that all got funneled through Mark,” Mr. Ludtke added. “And the pushback and resistance from the F.A.A. got funneled through Mark.”

Like others, Mr. Forkner may have had an imperfect understanding of MCAS.

Technical pilots at Boeing like him previously flew planes regularly, two former employees said. “Then the company made a strategic change where they decided tech pilots would no longer be active pilots,” Mr. Ludtke said.

Mr. Forkner largely worked on flight simulators, which didn’t fully mimic MCAS.

It is unclear whether Mr. Forkner, now a pilot for Southwest Airlines, was aware of the changes to the system.

Mr. Forkner’s attorney, David Gerger, said his client did not mislead the F.A.A. “Mark is an Air Force veteran who put safety first and was transparent in his work,” Mr. Gerger said.

“In thousands of tests, nothing like this had ever happened,” he said. “Based on what he was told and what he knew, he never dreamed that it could.”

The F.A.A. group that worked with Mr. Forkner made some decisions based on an incomplete view of the system. It never tested a malfunctioning sensor, according to the three officials. It didn’t require additional training.

William Schubbe, a senior F.A.A. official who worked with the training group, told pilots and airlines in an April meeting in Washington, D.C., that Boeing had underplayed MCAS, according to a recording reviewed by The Times.

“The way the system was presented to the F.A.A.,” Mr. Schubbe said, “the Boeing Corporation said this thing is so transparent to the pilot that there’s no need to demonstrate any kind of failing.”

The F.A.A. officials involved in training weren’t the only ones operating with outdated information.

An April 2017 maintenance manual that Boeing provided to airlines refers to the original version of MCAS. By that point, Boeing had started delivering the planes. The current manual is updated.

Boeing continued to defend MCAS and its reliance on a single sensor after the first crash, involving Indonesia’s Lion Air.

At a tense meeting with the pilots’ union at American Airlines in November, Boeing executives dismissed concerns. “It’s been reported that it’s a single point failure, but it is not considered by design or certification a single point,” said Mike Sinnett, a Boeing vice president, according to a recording of the meeting.

His reasoning? The pilots were the backup.

“Because the function and the trained pilot work side by side and are part of the system,” he said.

Four months later, a second 737 Max crashed in Ethiopia. Within days, the Max was grounded around the world.

As part of the fix, Boeing has reworked MCAS to more closely resemble the first version. It will be less aggressive, and it will rely on two sensors.

Jack Nicas reported from Seattle, and Natalie Kitroeff, David Gelles and James Glanz from New York. Julie Creswell, Tiffany Hsu and Agustin Armendariz contributed reporting from New York. Kitty Bennett and Alain Delaquérière contributed research.

A version of this article appears in print on June 2, 2019 of the New York edition with the headline: The Late Change, And Fatal Flaws, In Boeing’s Plane. Order Reprints | Today’s Paper | Subscribe
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 22:20
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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I don’t recall a lot of discussion in the various MAX threads about MCAS in high speed / high G scenarios, is its behavior there known?
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 22:35
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Au Revoir?

PR people, is this good PR, or is it just Boeing signing-off? At least they show that they're willing to look for short cuts.
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 23:16
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Salute!

Thanks, Murphy, I just reverted to my old days. No offense to Hector. He say "toe-may-toe", I say "toe-mah-toe".

My first exposure to "manual electric trim" was when I had a backseat joyride in a T-33 in 1960. Up til then I had to crank a wheel for elevator trim and had no aileron trim gizmo. Hell, I learned on WW2 observation planes as a youngster in the late 50's. That T-33 "coolie hat" trim switch on top of the stick was a neat thing. A few years later my T-37 IP told me I wouldn't graduate high enuf to get a fighter unless I had a hole in my glove's thumb from trimming all the time. I never lost that habit, even in the Viper 20 years later when you only trimmed gee unless gear was down.

Gums sends....

Last edited by gums; 2nd Jun 2019 at 13:53.
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Old 1st Jun 2019, 23:34
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Zeffy View Post
Boeing Built Deadly Assumptions Into 737 Max, Blind to a Late Design Change
One word explains it all, happens all the time, everywhere its implemented.

"Agile"

Just do it, test once, if it works once, push it out, bugs will be fixed in production by a different team.
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Old 2nd Jun 2019, 01:34
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Yes very interesting that NY times link.

Test pilots, engineers and regulators - do not seem to be pointing toward poorly trained third world pilots!

I was not me, I did not know seems what can be implied. That and - I'm seeing that bus you want to throw me under!

Seems Boeing has had cancer for quite some time, it has spread expediently and is still refusing treatment.
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Old 2nd Jun 2019, 01:44
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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You would think the 787 would have been a learning experience. Despite it's rocky start it is a very popular plane now and bringing in a lot of cash for Boeing. The battery problem was really all down to making sure that it was done right. They instead decided to assume the batteries from the supplier were all perfect and caused themselves a lot of needless pain.
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Old 2nd Jun 2019, 03:20
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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The new news here is that "the MAX doesn't handle well in stalls at low speeds." So MCAS #2 was a bandaid to fix that problem, which is apparently a separate issue from the high angle of attack issue that we knew about, which was fixed by MCAS bandaid #1. Now the fix is to make MCAS less likely to trigger, what does that do to the low speed near stall handling?

Fingers are already being pointed. This probably came from Boeing's PR team, so the true story must be pretty bad. Were laws broken? The government tends to take the paperwork seriously, and this looks like a conscious effort to suppress information about the MAX's handling issues, which affects both the FAA and the SEC if they want to push it. Boeing seems to be positioning the blame onto one "rogue" flight tester, who now works for Southwest. "Oh no sir, nobody else knew about this change, or hardly anybody else and certainly not the CEO." That worked for Volkswagen for about -1 seconds.

Is it a typical career path for a top flight tester and former top FAA official to become a first officer?
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Old 2nd Jun 2019, 04:00
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Water Pilot.

Band-aid # 1 - introduce MCAS at 0.6 degrees from design estimates.
Band-aid # 2 - increase speed and travel of MCAS to 2.5 degrees, and a few other changes to fix the "opposite end of envelope" unforeseen issues.
Band-aid # 3 - tell pilots that MCAS exists and supply a vague reference about trim runaway procedure with a "note" that it could be a good idea to trim to neutral, before hitting the cutouts.
Band-aid # 4 - change the position, colour and shape of band-aid # 2.

But the big problem is that almost every day a new wound is being discovered, I expect much more is to follow.
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Old 2nd Jun 2019, 05:22
  #114 (permalink)  
568
 
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Originally Posted by Water pilot View Post
The new news here is that "the MAX doesn't handle well in stalls at low speeds." So MCAS #2 was a bandaid to fix that problem, which is apparently a separate issue from the high angle of attack issue that we knew about, which was fixed by MCAS bandaid #1. Now the fix is to make MCAS less likely to trigger, what does that do to the low speed near stall handling?

Fingers are already being pointed. This probably came from Boeing's PR team, so the true story must be pretty bad. Were laws broken? The government tends to take the paperwork seriously, and this looks like a conscious effort to suppress information about the MAX's handling issues, which affects both the FAA and the SEC if they want to push it. Boeing seems to be positioning the blame onto one "rogue" flight tester, who now works for Southwest. "Oh no sir, nobody else knew about this change, or hardly anybody else and certainly not the CEO." That worked for Volkswagen for about -1 seconds.

Is it a typical career path for a top flight tester and former top FAA official to become a first officer?
He (Mark) wasn't a "top flight tester" at Boeing.Anyone joining an airline has to join at the FO level due to seniority rules and work up.
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Old 2nd Jun 2019, 06:53
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yoko1 View Post
Not to say that there is never room for improvement, but such a drastic action would have to be reconciled with the fact that the 737NG has one of the best safety records of any commercial aircraft ever built.
The comfort of sitting on a powder keg is directly proportionate to the length of the fuse.
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Old 2nd Jun 2019, 07:35
  #116 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by safetypee View Post
fdr #44,
Interesting views, no disagreement.

This particular deficiency is going to be more than a minor matter …’
It might be premature to discuss specific solutions for a deficiency which as yet is not clearly understood (at least publicly).
Elevator effectiveness, yes; but also in normal operation consider the combined horizontal tail surfaces - trim drag. What do you imply with TE tabs; corrective effect must overcome the failed trim condition, but not detract from normal operation.

Alternative thoughts could question why it was necessary to increase the tail area, yet retain the same size elevator. More trim range required whilst the pitch control appeared to be adequate.
The obvious longer, heavier, cg, arguments apply, but pitching moment with varying thrust levels could add another dimension.
Another question is why the trim range was chosen (horiz stab angles), is this relatively large, what are the limiting aerodynamic conditions; high, low speed, configuration, cg, thrust.
Have these changed with the evolving variants.
Background ref; https://www.satcom.guru/2019/04/stab...and-range.html
Increasing the span of the stab increases the tail volume for the stab system. It also increases the slope slightly of the CL/AOA curve for the stab and the elevator as a system. It does however as you have intimated, reduce the effective balance of stabiliser to elevator authority, which could be a problem. The increased slope may be a factor that is being observed in the creep of the trim in ET302, and if so, that will need some sober thought to resolve. I would think that a solution for a possible authority mis match between the stab and the elevator is resolved in the first instance with a T tab on the TE of the elevator, which markedly increases the control authority. That can also be achieved elegantly by a thicker TE section, much as is seen on some Airbus aircraft and others.The addition of wedges would achieve the same outcome. Any addition at the TE of a flight control comes with it's very own aeroelastic issues. Altering the elevator authority has considerable knock on effects in certification, but is doable. Another method of increasing authority is low profile VGs in the cove of the stab-elevator, that become exposed on deflection of the elevator. That sort of device only makes a difference when the control deflection has exceeded around 5-8 degrees of deflection, below that there is not much separation effect on the surface. Blowing is a viable solution as well and has very large authority change possible, but it would be a reliability headache for certification.

I think any potential problem in this area is able to be viewed from the other end, the stab manual movement needs to be reworked to permit manual control in all cases, or the industry has to dust off the old training information, and make sure that the crews are fully trained to deal with stabilisers that are defeated by air loads. Defeated, not immobile, as ET appears to show that the trim was creeping in the wrong direction all by itself, and that is not a happy place to be.

Alternatively, the industry will shrug it's shoulders, and look at the probability of the event and just suggest that the passengers be careful in buying tickets that are unlucky.

The article on the development of MCAS is depressing reading. Incremental change is usually reasonably safe, but only until trigger points are crossed. The problem is that the risk resulting from further change from known processes is not linear.
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Old 2nd Jun 2019, 07:48
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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The NG handles well in low speed high angle of attack scenarios. For a NG to end up in a situation with near full AND trim (a situation where manual trim wheel operation is not possible) you need an unnoticed runaway trim for quite some time.
I have trained runaway trim in the simulator. A nose up trim is harder to notice since STS trims nose up, but you can turn the trim wheel manually in this situation.
A trim down will be noticed long before you get full AND. The runaway trim QRH procedure takes care of this problem.
The NG is safe.


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Old 2nd Jun 2019, 08:08
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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The NG handled well in the simulator - but the real event apparently is very different from what most have experienced in the simulators.

Have they rectified that simulator trim wheel force issue on the NG & MAX simulators or is that work in progress?
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Old 2nd Jun 2019, 08:26
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
Yes very interesting that NY times link.

Test pilots, engineers and regulators - do not seem to be pointing toward poorly trained third world pilots!

I was not me, I did not know seems what can be implied. That and - I'm seeing that bus you want to throw me under!

Seems Boeing has had cancer for quite some time, it has spread expediently and is still refusing treatment.
Add a management who is of course not to blame, because they never asked for a unsafe product just a ever faster spinning cycle of 'make it faster', 'make it cheaper', 'we don't need no worrywarts, we need men of action', 'if you can't make it happen, there will be someone else who can'.
So we are now at the stage where the scrape goat subordinates come forward with their stories. I feel for them. They are going to have a hard time. Ask Mr. Oliver Schmidt from Volkswagen. Hopefully it will be beneficial for them to be US citizens.
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Old 2nd Jun 2019, 08:44
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
The NG handled well in the simulator - but the real event apparently is very different from what most have experienced in the simulators.

Have they rectified that simulator trim wheel force issue on the NG & MAX simulators or is that work in progress?
What issue (NG) would that be? You can’t move the trim wheel manually in the NG sim with the trim fully forward and with strong aft pressure on the yoke. Low speed, high speed, it doesn’t matter.
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