MAX’s Return Delayed by FAA Reevaluation of 737 Safety Procedures
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Ironically, before the MAX the 737 stab trim system had become very reliable and significant problems were very rare. This level of reliability generated a great deal of complacency among both crews and airlines which then led to a lack of regular training with and awareness of potential runaway stab scenarios. This training deficiency can potentially contribute to problems with recognition and delayed crew response.
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As I understand the system, if the stab was truly jammed in place - either by aerodynamic loads or some physical malfunction - the electric trim motor would turn, the clutch would slip, and the stab would not move. That being said, I know of no actual case of this happening on a 737.
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Agreed -this generic schematic shows a clutch.
(sorry couldn't make the jpeg work - will try harder)
(sorry couldn't make the jpeg work - will try harder)
Last edited by Europa01; 28th Sep 2019 at 15:27. Reason: Failed to post jpeg correctly - apologies
Ironically, before the MAX the 737 stab trim system had become very reliable and significant problems were very rare. This level of reliability generated a great deal of complacency among both crews and airlines which then led to a lack of regular training with and awareness of potential runaway stab scenarios. This training deficiency can potentially contribute to problems with recognition and delayed crew response.
For a runaway stab, usually it's a failure of the trim switches. That is - the pilot trims, and releases the switch but the trim keeps running. As the pilot initiated the trimming, a problem is almost automatically assumed to be a trim problem in the pilot's mind and added to the noise of the trim in the otherwise quiet cockpit, the runaway trim is obvious and the correction is instinctive (trim against the runaway - firstly with the switches, secondly manually.)
An MCAS event, however, happens after a stick shaker on the Captain's side, AND unreliable airspeed on the Captain's side - and with all of that going on pulling the pilots eyes away from the centre pedastal to the flying instruments the trim spins (with the noise of that covered by the stick shaker). The fact that this event took two experienced pilots to their deaths shows how different, difficult and dangerous the event is to diagnose in the time available.
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An MCAS event, however, happens after a stick shaker on the Captain's side, AND unreliable airspeed on the Captain's side - and with all of that going on pulling the pilots eyes away from the centre pedastal to the flying instruments the trim spins (with the noise of that covered by the stick shaker). The fact that this event took two experienced pilots to their deaths shows how different, difficult and dangerous the event is to diagnose in the time available.
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"The accident was truly caused by the crew in both cases"
"It amounted to just a runaway trim"
"There was never a reason to ground [the MAX]"
"[Boeing's] largest mistake was to overestimate the quality of the pilots it was selling its airplane to"
Video: CNBC interview with William Langewiesche
"It amounted to just a runaway trim"
"There was never a reason to ground [the MAX]"
"[Boeing's] largest mistake was to overestimate the quality of the pilots it was selling its airplane to"
Video: CNBC interview with William Langewiesche
But from the posts here this is explicitly NOT being taught in training. The teaching seems to be to find the correct NNC(s) to use, then run them by rote. If there is a cacophony of alarms and cavalry charges, flashing lights, EICAS messages, and horns and verbal alerts, the crew are spoilt for choice - which NNC to run? This is the cognitive overload that NTSB is warning about. And as the repetitious posters above would tell them disregard the noise, 'fly the aircraft' - 'pitch and power' and only then while in control of the situation work out what the automatics are complaining about. This approach would have the advantage of reducing the cognitive overload as the human is doing something meaningful and effective.
Do any airlines train crews to 'fly the aircraft' - 'pitch and power' as a an essential underlying task while running NNCs?
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This is the cognitive overload that NTSB is warning about. And as the repetitious posters above would tell them disregard the noise, 'fly the aircraft' - 'pitch and power' and only then while in control of the situation work out what the automatics are complaining about. This approach would have the advantage of reducing the cognitive overload as the human is doing something meaningful and effective.
Do any airlines train crews to 'fly the aircraft' - 'pitch and power' as a an essential underlying task while running NNCs?
Do any airlines train crews to 'fly the aircraft' - 'pitch and power' as a an essential underlying task while running NNCs?
Emphasis should be place on the fact that the accident aircrews were experiencing control difficulties beside all the cognitive overload, and ultimately failed to maintain pitch attitude.
The aircraft was nosing down, the elevator couldn't counter it, and the trim wasn't runaway, it was behaving in a mysterious manner.
Every pilot that experienced or witnessed the situation in the engineering cab (fixed, no g's, no movement), stated that the situation was extremely difficult to manage, even with no stress and knowing in advance what was to take place, and what the solution was.
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Since the days of the 707, one of the issues with this trim system is that it is very difficult to operate the manual trim wheel from an excessive out-of-trim condition. The answer then is to not let this aircraft get grossly out of trim which means that flight crews need to keep the stab trim state, and any motions of the trim wheel, very much in their regular cross check, and respond promptly to any undesired trim inputs.
Ironically, before the MAX the 737 stab trim system had become very reliable and significant problems were very rare. This level of reliability generated a great deal of complacency among both crews and airlines which then led to a lack of regular training with and awareness of potential runaway stab scenarios. This training deficiency can potentially contribute to problems with recognition and delayed crew response.
Ironically, before the MAX the 737 stab trim system had become very reliable and significant problems were very rare. This level of reliability generated a great deal of complacency among both crews and airlines which then led to a lack of regular training with and awareness of potential runaway stab scenarios. This training deficiency can potentially contribute to problems with recognition and delayed crew response.
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Here is what the NTSB report insists on, and where Boeing and the FAA were wrong : in theory it should have appeared as a trim runaway, but in reality it was totally different.
Emphasis should be place on the fact that the accident aircrews were experiencing control difficulties beside all the cognitive overload, and ultimately failed to maintain pitch attitude.
The aircraft was nosing down, the elevator couldn't counter it, and the trim wasn't runaway, it was behaving in a mysterious manner.
Every pilot that experienced or witnessed the situation in the engineering cab (fixed, no g's, no movement), stated that the situation was extremely difficult to manage, even with no stress and knowing in advance what was to take place, and what the solution was.
Emphasis should be place on the fact that the accident aircrews were experiencing control difficulties beside all the cognitive overload, and ultimately failed to maintain pitch attitude.
The aircraft was nosing down, the elevator couldn't counter it, and the trim wasn't runaway, it was behaving in a mysterious manner.
Every pilot that experienced or witnessed the situation in the engineering cab (fixed, no g's, no movement), stated that the situation was extremely difficult to manage, even with no stress and knowing in advance what was to take place, and what the solution was.
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Every pilot? Where's that report? And what are the circumstances and conditions? I saw one report that gave the pilots the plane at full runway trim and 300+ (350+?) knots. What were their impressions and reactions if they were flying the entire scenario and took off and had the trim issue at less than 200 kts and didn't keep takeoff power the entire time which ultimately lead to excessive speed which just compounded the problem?
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Maybe if you go a long way back in this thread and others, you'll find statements from pilots who "flew" the event in the engineering cab. Also maybe you heard Capt. Sullenberger report what he saw during those "fligts" and what he told the Committee.
You might be tempted to say that's "every pilot who flew and reported said...", and you'd be right.
But then I'd challenge you in return : tell us more about this report you are citing ;-)
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Reacting as if it was a trim runaway would have stopped the problem. The plane could have been flown, almost 100% normally, to a safe landing. That's exactly what happened on the flight that the jump seater identified the problem as a runaway trim - the crew turned the trim off using the stab trim cutout switches and continued to their destination.
No certifying agency, pilot union representative, or member of the NTSB share your perspective, so pending more credentials on your part, I'll stick to my opinion considering what whe do know of the accidents, human factors and what my experience as a flight instructor taught me.
I'll add that any video of a "I'd do better" pilot confronted with multiple failures in the sim might help us form a considered opinion on the matter.
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Reacting as if it was a trim runaway would have stopped the problem. The plane could have been flown, almost 100% normally, to a safe landing. That's exactly what happened on the flight that the jump seater identified the problem as a runaway trim - the crew turned the trim off using the stab trim cutout switches and continued to their destination. I'm not advocating continuing to your destination after a stab trim problem but their actions show that it's fully controllable once the appropriate steps are taken.
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For example, not all engine malfunctions conform to the typical failures seen in the sim. Back in my 727 days, I once had an engine that was producing some odd readings (mainly a mismatch between EPR and RPM's with a very slight amount of adverse yaw). The engine was producing thrust, none of the readings were out of limits, and none of the checklists addressed what we were seeing. Yet something was "off." We decided to secure the engine and land. Upon inspection after landing, maintenance determined that a bleed duct had failed and would have likely resulted in further damage if we had not shut down the engine. In this case, if a crew had been looking for some kind of specific written guidance on how to handle this malfunction, they would have come up empty.
You are absolutely correct that a MCAS malfunction does not look like a "classic" runaway stab trim problem particularly in that it lacks that "continuous" aspect referred to in the QRH. However, from the perspective that this malfunction resulted in uncommanded and undesired stab trim inputs, then the Runaway Stab Trim NNC was a suitable tool by which to address it. That thought process, however, required something of a "big picture" perspective that I believe is not adequately taught at many airlines today.
just as it would have been an issue if there had been an engine failure amidst a cacophony of alarms.
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I can assure you that if you have a major engine malfunction that starts slinging parts and taking out various other systems, you will have more than one alarm, some of which you may not be able to silence right away. Or perhaps that flock of birds the plane flew through took out a few more things than just an engine. There is no immutable law the prohibits multiple things from going wrong at the same time, yet current training regimes will still present scripted problems one at a time with clearly defined symptoms and clearly defined actions.
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