Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

SXF runway blocked

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

SXF runway blocked

Old 18th Apr 2019, 13:21
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: CYUL
Posts: 833
Originally Posted by Super VC-10 View Post
Does this display show what has been asked for, or what is actually happening?
In the picture above it shows that all systems are functioning correctly (green) and the only way you would actually see what is displayed on this picture would be after a landing on the roll out with full flaps (30 deg) and all spoilers and lift dump deployed or if you were on a ramp with full flaps and selected lift dump and deployed full spoilers to test the system.

In normal Ops it just shows what is actively being used and any abnormal situation would show up in amber.
Jet Jockey A4 is offline  
Old 18th Apr 2019, 18:29
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 488
Early Globals used to suffer various flight control snags (spoiler or Slat/Flap) after engine start, which could be reset by isolating the 2 power feeds to each of the 2 FCUs (Flight Control Units) via the EMSCDU. Drastic I know, but removing power to the FCUs in flight would stop the spoilers operating and keep them closed. You may also lose trim and AP etc, but once configured for landing it could be an option to help you regain roll control.
H Peacock is offline  
Old 18th Apr 2019, 20:35
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Geneva, Switzerland
Age: 50
Posts: 1,432
Originally Posted by H Peacock View Post
Flight Controls synoptic on a Global displays the actual positions of the control surfaces.
how does that work?
mechanical sensors for each control surface and real time comparison vs commanded deflection?
atakacs is offline  
Old 18th Apr 2019, 21:11
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hadlow
Age: 56
Posts: 591
Perhaps my question wasn't quite clear enough, perhaps it was...

Just supposing some wires had got crossed somewhere and a control surface operated in the opposite way to normal. Would the display show this anomaly,or would it display as normal?
Super VC-10 is offline  
Old 18th Apr 2019, 21:14
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Only upon request
Posts: 848
Itís a pity that the Luftwaffe didnít get proper advice :

- buy Global Vision instead of classic
- avoid LBAS

The trend I observe is not good: manufacturers tend to acquire maintenance facilities (Dassault buys TAG and Execujet maintenance, Bombardier removed Jet Aviation maintenance approvals and set up own facilities...).

They canít make profit selling planes so they want to get the money back with maintenance...


Last edited by FLEXJET; 18th Apr 2019 at 21:26.
FLEXJET is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2019, 01:43
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 0A
Posts: 7,808
Originally Posted by Jet Jockey A4
What is so complicated about that display?
It just is. What about an image from behind so you can see the horizontal surfaces move up and down, as they do for real? Easier to pick up a crossed spoiler or aileron.

The only semi-logical bit is looking down on the rudder, seeing it move left and right.
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2019, 07:51
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 10,894


Controls check using the synoptic display at 2:30.
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2019, 09:02
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 0A
Posts: 7,808
Good two-crew check of controls... not.
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2019, 09:03
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,217
Amazing that reversed controls happen in this day and age. Surely there are different plugs and sockets for each function - physically incapable of being mated the wrong way round?

I remember a BAe146 ground engineer many years ago responding to my innocent question: “do you guys use checklists like us ?”. He said, “No, we use common sense”. I thought at the time this was a foolish situation.

I can imagine (hopefully incorrectly), in a busy maintenance hangar with deadlines and aircraft needing to be moved: “Controls right, controls left?” “Er yeah, all working” (but reversed and not noticed by a non pilot).

The other day there was a lorry on the motorway with fancy LED rear lights. However, when he applied the brakes, the right hand brake lights came on but on the left side only the amber indicator lights illuminated. So not a very thorough check of the lighting wiring and function had been made there !

One hopes that nowadays, detailed checklists are used by aircraft maintenance engineers after any extensive work to check basic things like control movements, and leaving absolutely no doubt: ‘Control column full right. Right aileron up. Right spoilers up. Left aileron down, Left spoilers flush.’ etc. Certainly, the ground engineers on the flight deck fixing our Airbuses always seem to have reams of detailed written checks to perform after fixing something.

But how come the pilots did not pick it up before take-off? Must be a nightmare trying to land with reversed controls. Anybody like me when I was about 12 who very foolishly tried crossing over their hands on their bicycle handlebars to see how difficult it would be, fell off very quickly because it is almost impossible to tell your brain to make opposite corrections. The learned reflex response is much quicker.
Uplinker is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2019, 15:53
  #50 (permalink)  
txl
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Berlin
Age: 51
Posts: 69
Various news outlets have more details, partly citing a Luftwaffe internal report.

According to this report, "severe problems with flight controls" occurred shortly after take off at an altitude of "around 6000 meters". Apparently, aircraft banked right and left violently. Plane didn't respond to pilots' control inputs and stalled. Crew then decided to return to SXF.

On finals, at around 300m altitude the aircraft started banking violently again. Crew tried to control the aircraft with rudder inputs. Aircraft touched ground with both wingtips, finally touching down hard but missing the runway. Afterwards, aircraft slid over grassy areas and taxiways until it came to rest somewhere on or around runway 7L.

According to a report by Spiegel Online, investigators suspect that spoilers might have been mis-adjusted during maintenance.

The aircraft sustained "severe structural damage" to wings and landing gear, according to Luftwaffe technicians quoted by Spiegel Online. Damage to the fuselage is still being assessed, some cabin interiors came off during the accident. Might even be a write-off.
txl is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2019, 16:48
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Europe
Posts: 23
Spooky! The complete SPON story t:
After the emergency landing of a government plane at Berlin-SchŲnefeld airport last Tuesday, the German Armed Forces began with the damage analysis. According to SPIEGEL information, Bundeswehr technicians found that the "Global 5000" jet had been damaged much more severely than initially thought.
Specifically, the technicians found the medium-range jet with the identification 14+01 "considerable structural damage" due to buckling and compression damage to both wings, as these had touched the ground during the dramatic landing. The aircraft has now been towed into a hangar and is being inspected there.
It is also possible that the fuselage was warped, at any rate tilted and the cabin trim came off during the crash landing. Even a total loss was not excluded by the Bundeswehr at first. In the meantime, the Deputy General Flight Safety of the Bundeswehr has upgraded the incident to the highest damage category (A).
New emergency landing problems
Bit by bit, the Bundeswehr also determined the course of the accident. During the test flight after several weeks of maintenance of the jet, the pilots had already registered "the first serious problems with flight control" shortly after take-off at an altitude of about 6000 metres, according to a protocol.
The details are not only alarming for insiders. So the airplane did not react to control inputs of the two pilots, it came to the stall. As a result, the pilots immediately decided to return to Berlin-SchŲnefeld Airport.
During the emergency landing manoeuvre new problems arose: The jet suddenly tilted extremely to the right at a height of about 300 meters without any control input and missed the runway. With the rudder the pilot got it under control again with difficulty, but could bring it instead of on the runway only on the apron of the airport on the ground.
Uncontrollable rolling movements
After the hard touchdown, the jet slid over lawns and several taxiways to runway 07L. Both the wings and the landing gear of the aircraft were massively damaged. Insiders said after the crash landing that they were very lucky that there were no other planes on the apron and taxiways at the time of landing.
The investigators suspect that the possible reason for the tax problems was that the spoilers on the wings could have been incorrectly adjusted during maintenance by an external service provider. The flaps normally support both braking and steering movements, but if incorrectly adjusted they could have triggered the uncontrollable rolling movements of the jet. Before the flight, the jet was in the process of being repaired by the service provider at Schoenefeld Airport for several weeks.
Next week it has to be decided whether there is a general problem with the "Global 5000". The next VIP flight with another jet of the same type is planned for Wednesday. The Luftwaffe had not issued a general flight ban for the four "Global 5000" jets, as the other jets are currently routinely in maintenance. The jet in question was also in routine maintenance at a service provider at Schoenefeld Airport for several weeks immediately before the flight on Tuesday.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
MrsDoubtfire is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2019, 17:07
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Geneva, Switzerland
Age: 50
Posts: 1,432
I guess that this being a military flight we will never see a report...
atakacs is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2019, 17:32
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 645
General Flugsicherheit (the military air accident investigation branch) has published detailed reports before. As this is high profile and public interest I doubt they'll classify it.
Kerosene Kraut is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2019, 20:56
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: The woods
Posts: 1
Do I understand from the above that this was a test flight? I wonder how the pre flight ground checks went. Lucky lucky crew. I bet they had a beer afterwards...

Lets hope the ďroutine maintenanceĒ on the other ships has some routine focus.
bill fly is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2019, 00:46
  #55 (permalink)  
mjv
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Alcatraz
Posts: 38
The 5000 has cables all the way up to the PCUís with an interconnection tube at the front and centre. FWD interconnection is housing the disconnect mechanism and the centre mainly for the AP servo and trim. There are 2 PCUís per AIL which come with LVDTs to feedback position for indication and the 2 FCUís.

The spoilers (flight spoilers) are controlled by 2 FCUís and always in pairs! Left outboard/right outboard and if a fault is detected both sides will stow. We have 2 sensors per side (fwd quadrant) which feedback the control column movements to the FCUís, left sensor 1 to FCU 1, left sensor 2 to FCU 2, right sensor 1to FCU 1 and right sensor 2 to FcU 2. One channel is always active and one is monitoring, same for the FCUís, each FCU has 2 independent channels which handle the spoiler pairs FCU 1 Channel A does the spoilers 1 on both sides and B does the 2ís on both sides.
feedback is done by LVDTís for controlling and indication. Only the ground spoilers come with old fashion targets as they are either out or in.

as for the spoiler rigging comment, well everything is possible however it is hard to believe! There is only 1 PCU per spoiler and you only have 1 ďgiantĒ rod which you have to adjust. To short means you have to explain a lot to your boss as you need some new spoilers and to long they will show deployed once hydraulic is applied.

to my knowledge there is no reason to play with the control sensors at the fwd quadrant nor anyone with a bit of common sense can swap any connectors aa they come with different keys.

mjv is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2019, 15:06
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: no more moscow
Posts: 20
Has nobody filmed this?

An announced emergency landing of a luftwaffe jet,
all video cameras should be pointed towards the plane.
Is there really no video available, just some pics from a spotter ?
I canít believe there are no moving pictures...
...?
macjet is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2019, 16:57
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: About to move
Posts: 36
Originally Posted by macjet View Post
An announced emergency landing of a luftwaffe jet,
all video cameras should be pointed towards the plane.
Is there really no video available, just some pics from a spotter ?
I canít believe there are no moving pictures...
...?
Not the only oddity about this incident.
Slow and curious is online now  
Old 20th Apr 2019, 17:46
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: cardiff
Posts: 424
Originally Posted by FLEXJET View Post
Itís a pity that the Luftwaffe didnít get proper advice :

- buy Global Vision instead of classic
- avoid LBAS

The trend I observe is not good: manufacturers tend to acquire maintenance facilities (Dassault buys TAG and Execujet maintenance, Bombardier removed Jet Aviation maintenance approvals and set up own facilities...).

They canít make profit selling planes so they want to get the money back with maintenance...

No point buying a vision, aside from swanky flight deck, computers that run spoilers are the same.

Ttfn

ivor toolbox is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2019, 18:42
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: no more moscow
Posts: 20
Another thing that does not sound right: "Shortly after takeoff in approximately 6000 meters..." (that is FL 190/200)

Maybe 6000 feet ??? - that sounds more like shortly after takeoff to me..?
macjet is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2019, 18:51
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Isla Grande
Posts: 835
Originally Posted by macjet View Post
Another thing that does not sound right: "Shortly after takeoff in approximately 6000 meters..." (that is FL 190/200)

Maybe 6000 feet ??? - that sounds more like shortly after takeoff to me..?
YEP, my thoughts as well.
gearlever is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.