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SXF runway blocked

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SXF runway blocked

Old 17th Apr 2019, 06:16
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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I understand that a jet isn't a 172, but after maintenance isn't there something along the lines of 'flight controls free *and correct*' ?
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 07:07
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Flight Control Synoptic page


Global Express/XRS Flight control synoptic page

After engine start, the flight controls are cycled through their range of movement and this is monitored on the synoptic page. The flight controls themselves can't be seen from the cockpit. I would suggest that it's human nature to assume all is well and you are looking at the range of movement indicated, not actually comparing the direction of movement of the multi-function spoilers to the ailerons. I can't recall if the FCOM (or equivalent) called for the checking of the roll function of the spoilers specifically or simply a check of whether they extended manually and "automatically" (weight on wheels). If you look at the diagram above, it has a top section and a bottom section. One tends to look at the bottom section when checking the primary controls and then the top section when you move on to the spoiler check. You therefore may not notice the asymmetry. I have seen pilots who come off the G-IV do the spoiler roll check out of habit, as the G-IV had a reasonably detailed ground spoiler check in the after start checklist.

This would have been an extremely confusing event for the pilots. With initial roll input, all would have worked correctly. Increasing the roll input, thereby activating the roll spoilers, would have reversed the desired result, which would trigger your muscle memory to further increase the roll input, again accelerating the error. Near the ground, it would take a quick thinking and brave individual to try reversing the roll input, potentially making the situation worse.

The crew did have a chance to trap the maintenance error in the after start checklist but this is yet another classic Human Factors incident with plenty of learning lessons. I'm glad the crew are ok. They did a good job recovering the aircraft.
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 07:44
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EDMJ View Post
One entertaining fact from the press conference was that the plan was to ferry (crew only) the aircraft to Cologne only to ferry it back to Berlin again the day after in order to bring the German President to Stuttgart.

I bet that the Greens in the German parliament are already climbing the walls on this issue - and I'm struggling to disagree with them.
You remember Volker Rühe, Secretary of defense - same issue, Chopper flying from EDDK to to EDDH to get the gentlemen IIRC from the airport to his living quarters on a Friday, chopper ferried back to EDDK only to go back on Monday morning. Or the Challenger that turned around on the Azores fuel stop, which was intended to pax around Misses Künast and Mr.Trittin in Brasilia, because Brasil has no good enough private planes. Both from the green party.
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 07:54
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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A very good instructor gave me this tip years ago - If roll control appears to be reversed, let go of the control yoke and just use rudder for secondary effects and then (if the design allows) hold the part of the control that emerges from the dashboard or floor for pitch attitude. Have tried this in light aircraft and it works well.
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 08:25
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Die Zeit
Deepl.com translation

The Luftwaffe announced that the Global 5000 business jet had serious control problems shortly after take-off at 08.40 a.m.. During the landing, the plane had scraped the ground with both wings. The air force crew had managed to "bring the jet to the ground under the most difficult conditions and thus prevent something worse from happening", explained Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen (CDU). The plane should have brought Federal President Frank-Walter Steinmeier to Stuttgart on Wednesday.

According to the Luftwaffe, the aircraft was just on its way back to Cologne for a 30-month check-up in one of the manufacturer's workshops in Schönefeld when a malfunction was reported. There had been uncontrolled flight movements, which the crew had not entered, said Commander Fliegende Gruppe der Flugbereitschaft, Lieutenant Colonel Stefan Schipke, at the airport. Two pilots and a flight attendant were on board. After landing, they were taken to a Bundeswehr hospital, but remained physically unharmed.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 08:50
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Spoilers left in maintenance mode? Happened on an A320 many years ago in the UK. One left in maintenance mode was enough to cause severy control difficulties. Crew did not realize during pre flight checks, it remained stowed, and once in the air, spoiler deployed with the vacuum created above the wing.
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 09:33
  #27 (permalink)  
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A young spotter witnessed this, Spiegel Online has more pictures here. Not looking good.

In the video, the witness says that he saw the aircraft on approach trying to compensate for violent roll and yaw, effectively overcompensating: "It was like a roller coaster, going sideways and up and down. Then it touched down after a while I'd been thinking they would have had to go around. And I've seen dust being blown up on landing. It stopped at the end of the runway and fire engines and ambulances came to the scene."
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 09:59
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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I asked my Trg Mgr years ago why the sim could not be/was not programmed with incorrect flt ctl response to the pre take off flt ctl check. No answer!
To my knowledge, it has happened twice to A320s post maintenance with, happily, no casualties but lots of red faces.
This could be another incident which might have been picked up before take off - we must wait and see.
Cheers,
mcdhu
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 11:11
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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A very good instructor gave me this tip years ago - If roll control appears to be reversed, let go of the control yoke and just use rudder for secondary effects and then (if the design allows) hold the part of the control that emerges from the dashboard or floor for pitch attitude. Have tried this in light aircraft and it works well.
I mentioned this in the Embraer thread: if your roll control is reversed, lean over and grab the FO's inboard control column horn with your right hand and your inboard horn with your left and away you go. Wouldn't work in this case though if the spoilers were reversed. And good luck doing it in an Airbus... come to think of it, does a Glex have a control column??
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 11:47
  #30 (permalink)  
BRE
 
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Originally Posted by mcdhu View Post
I asked my Trg Mgr years ago why the sim could not be/was not programmed with incorrect flt ctl response to the pre take off flt ctl check. No answer!
To my knowledge, it has happened twice to A320s post maintenance with, happily, no casualties but lots of red faces.
This could be another incident which might have been picked up before take off - we must wait and see.
Cheers,
mcdhu
One was a Lufthansa about 10 years ago. Apparently, only the wiring of the Captain' s side stick were reversed.
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 15:01
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by txl View Post
A young spotter witnessed this, Spiegel Online has more pictures here. Not looking good.

In the video, the witness says that he saw the aircraft on approach trying to compensate for violent roll and yaw, effectively overcompensating: "It was like a roller coaster, going sideways and up and down. Then it touched down after a while I'd been thinking they would have had to go around. And I've seen dust being blown up on landing. It stopped at the end of the runway and fire engines and ambulances came to the scene."
To me it looks LH aileron up, RH spoilers up.......
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 19:06
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Noeyedear View Post

Global Express/XRS Flight control synoptic page
Does this display show what has been asked for, or what is actually happening?
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 19:21
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Super VC-10, That is a most erudite question. To cut to the quick, I don’t know in definitive terms, but having said that, surely the synoptic would be useless if it did not show the result, rather than the request?

Having said that, I do recall being told that some of the valve positions on the bleed air page could be misleading, but in this day and age of "you don't need to know that", it was never expanded upon.

As the aircraft is intact, all should be revealed in the near future.
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 19:40
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Blacktimes View Post
Spoilers left in maintenance mode? Happened on an A320 many years ago in the UK. One left in maintenance mode was enough to cause severy control difficulties. Crew did not realize during pre flight checks, it remained stowed, and once in the air, spoiler deployed with the vacuum created above the wing.
Was that an Excalibur A320?
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 21:41
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Does this display show what has been asked for, or what is actually happening?
Flight Controls synoptic on a Global displays the actual positions of the control surfaces.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 03:11
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Could they have made that display any more complicated/difficult to understand??
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 04:03
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Twiglet1 View Post
Was that an Excalibur A320?
Yep, Excalibur A320
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 05:28
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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That display actually shows ground lift dump deployed ie all the spoilers, not just the roll assist.
And yes, there is supposed to be a flying control check, including roll assist spoilers in the after start checks.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 09:15
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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These aeroplanes keep finding new ways to kill us... I am sure some hero will come up with the appropriate corrective actions soon:
Go Around
er Check Roll Input vs. effect and display
er Hydraulics Off
er ...
That is what a US pilot would have done
er...
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 13:15
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs View Post
Could they have made that display any more complicated/difficult to understand??
What is so complicated about that display?
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