Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Originally Posted by Bravo Delta

This is absolutely incredible, Auto pilot on or off - who cares.
Boeing and the FAA say pilot error and the plane is certified to fly.
Please tell me how come the crew fell into the same trap as another third world crew did only months earlier.
You pilots are more interested in the stripes and image.
Know your systems Know your plane.

Unfortunately I think you are correct, Boeing have some rogue sensors on their new Aircraft, that’s all , they have a drill to counter this .

[HarryMann]

Originally Posted by acad_l

True. But the Airbus planes are stable throughout their flying envelope. The Max alas is not. The FAA should have never allowed a software fix as a remedy for a basic design flaw. And there must have been engineers at Boeing who were very upset of having been overruled by bean counters and MBA types. Admittedly the MCAS as it is today is a remedy (to the symptoms) worse than the disease. But there should never have been an MCAS in the first place, the right thing to do was to redesign the horizontal stabilizer.

Only airliner I can think of that turned out to have a stability issue was the BAC-111. But that was found late in the game, not by design, and the remedy apparently worked.

By my understanding that's a bit of a simplification... and most T tailed aircraft tend to have that characteristic, as with the Comet and fatigue, the 1-11 just happened to be the first to fly in that regime.

[22/04]

why didn't Boeing develop the 757 instead

Well because the biggest market was airlines flying the 737 who pilots already had a 737 type rating like Southwest, Ryanair etc for starters.

[Cows getting bigger]

Methinks our Antipodean mate has been on the XXXX.

[ASRAAMTOO]

I wonder if sometime ago, in a committee room in Chicago a conversation like this occurred:

"OK fellas, we are having some problems certifying our new jet. Apparently there is this ridiculous certification requirement that stick force must not decrease when approaching the stall. Clearly this situation won't happen in real life but we need a solution to keep the regulators happy. Since no ones ever going to use it and the regulators arn't too sharp these days it doesn't have to be too clever but it REALLY needs to be cheap. We have taken loads of orders for this jet and if we change too many things it will cost money"

Now then BUBBA, whats this MCAS you were thinking of............

[stormin norman]

If it's an AOA failure that's causing these problems does anyone know the failure rate of these vanes ?

And who makes them ?

[Cows getting bigger]

Originally Posted by ASRAAMTOO

I wonder if sometime ago, in a committee room in Chicago a conversation like this occurred:

"OK fellas, we are having some problems certifying our new jet. Apparently there is this ridiculous certification requirement that stick force must not decrease when approaching the stall. Clearly this situation won't happen in real life but we need a solution to keep the regulators happy. Since no ones ever going to use it and the regulators arn't too sharp these days it doesn't have to be too clever but it REALLY needs to be cheap. We have taken loads of orders for this jet and if we change too many things it will cost money"

Now then BUBBA, whats this MCAS you were thinking of............

I had a similar mischievous though. VW diesel engines and emission testing was my analogy.

[Sucram]

Originally Posted by crosscust

MCAS is operational with flaps up. Most (if not all) airlines do not start retracting flaps till 3000’ AFE. According to reports, Ethiopian never achieved anything higher than about a 1,000’ (not even close to 3k).

Most opinions on here are probably from media types baiting for info so they can self profess themselves for the cameras. Give it a rest till something concrete comes out from the FDR/CVR etc investigations.

not true, flap retracton at Addis is 1000 above airfield elevation, or 8625 amsl

[ManaAdaSystem]

So the Americans have had 5 cases of control issues after takeoff on the MAX. At least two happened when they engaged the auto pilot.
There appears to be several issue with the MAX.
Only time before it’s grounded world wide.

[ReturningVector]

Originally Posted by Sucram

not true, flap retracton at Addis is 1000 above airfield elevation, or 8625 amsl

As far as I know, the 737 acc altitude is 1500' AAL, so flap retraction will be even higher up. I can't find any exemptions to NADP1/2 in the aerodrome information. Am I missing something?

[spiros737]

all I have to say is that I will wait for the final report of the accident. please don't start blame the airplane or the manufactures. the MAX is not a new plane that fall from the stars and none know how to fly. is a 737ng with new engines and some new software for more efficiency and safety. all the others thing is the same and a pilot with a 737ng type rating can fly the airplane. as aviation experts said there is no only one thing ( MCAS ) that will cause a accident.

[KelvinD]

The various grounding decisions are a mystery to me. Last night, a pair of Smartwings 737Max aircraft failed to complete their flights to Prague. One diverted into Tunis while the other returned from Turkish air space to its origin in Dubai. I made the assumption then that this maybe because they were not going to be allowed into European air space. Now, this morning, I see another Smartwings 737Max en route from Vilnius to Prague.
I also noticed that despite the ban from Indian air space, there was more than one Spicejet 737Max in and around India and this morning there was another couple of them heading for Indian airports, including 1 domestic flight. When is a ban not a ban?

[Toruk Macto]

Without passengers they can fly anywhere anytime I believe ?

[LookingForAJob]

Without passengers they can fly anywhere anytime I believe ?

Not correct - you need to look at the directives that have been issued by each specific State or bloc, relating both to the aircraft type and to use of the States' airspace by those types.

[quentinc]

Originally Posted by KelvinD

The various grounding decisions are a mystery to me. Last night, a pair of Smartwings 737Max aircraft failed to complete their flights to Prague. One diverted into Tunis while the other returned from Turkish air space to its origin in Dubai. I made the assumption then that this maybe because they were not going to be allowed into European air space. Now, this morning, I see another Smartwings 737Max en route from Vilnius to Prague.
I also noticed that despite the ban from Indian air space, there was more than one Spicejet 737Max in and around India and this morning there was another couple of them heading for Indian airports, including 1 domestic flight. When is a ban not a ban?

The EASA ban allows for 3 re-positioning flights, without passengers, to allow the planes to be in a position to work on any modifications required.

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by KelvinD

When is a ban not a ban?

The EASA restriction, as I noted several posts back, does not apply to positioning flights back to base, only to commercial services.

I don't think Smart Wings operates VNO-PRG and even if they did, the flight number (TVS420P) is a giveaway that it's positioning empty.

[acatal]

Ok this could be a dumb non pilot question in which case the mods can deal with is but here goes. There had been a lot of talk about the MCAS software design and its possible limitations. But just as pilots need to get hours in the simulator doesn't the software itself have to do the same thing? Ie: would mcas have had to endure endless hours of simulator training with real people testing its limits?

[ManaAdaSystem]

I’m one of the few who have no issues flying on the MAX. All MAX pilots know about the MCAS and how to correct upsets.
MCAS works as advertised. It’s just a poorly designed system that acts on faulty information.
Denying aircraft in the air the right to complete the flights before grounding them is a major overreaction.
It’s plain silly.

[22/04]

To restore confidence in the aircraft - what?

Three AOA sensors inputting to MCAS two of which must agree.

Limitation to the forward trim provided by MCAS?

They would do it for me. How difficult/expensive to fit/retrofit.

[poldek77]

Originally Posted by KelvinD

The various grounding decisions are a mystery to me. Last night, a pair of Smartwings 737Max aircraft failed to complete their flights to Prague. One diverted into Tunis while the other returned from Turkish air space to its origin in Dubai. I made the assumption then that this maybe because they were not going to be allowed into European air space. Now, this morning, I see another Smartwings 737Max en route from Vilnius to Prague.
I also noticed that despite the ban from Indian air space, there was more than one Spicejet 737Max in and around India and this morning there was another couple of them heading for Indian airports, including 1 domestic flight. When is a ban not a ban?

Probably not correct - it seems that they landed in Ankara instead
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/f...s1201#1fc767d2