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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:21
  #701 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: down under
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Originally Posted by fox niner View Post
Re: captain had 8000 flt [email protected] 28 years of age:

That sounds hardly believable.
18 out of high school
20 out of flight school with 200 hours
that means 1000 hours per year for every 8 years.
I dont buy it. Must be false.
quite an accusation; maybe he finished high school at 17, maybe he flew a lot in his teens, so maybe 7000 hrs in 9 years, say 15 hrs/week. Obviously not common, but impossible?
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:24
  #702 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
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Originally Posted by Escape Velocity View Post

​Here's the truth - none of them could fly an airplane. Plain and simple. No exaggeration, just the plain truth. ​​​​​​
Thats a pretty unfair and sweeping statement
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:24
  #703 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
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Originally Posted by oldoberon View Post
"With electrical power to the FCCs maintained, the unit that provides MCAS changes between flights"

I am assuming by flights you mean airborne not one continuous flight number with multiple stops I e multiple take off/landing. I believe a flight from A to B stopping at C,D and E keeps the same flight number right through all legs. To meet your conditions of continuous power, on landing either the engines are kept running, APU is started or ground power applied, so how does the system know when next flight starts, Is there a weight on switch on the UC, or does it monitor engine power/aircraft speed to determine next flight has started.. What happens if all power is turned off how does it know which FCC to use.next time.

Why would the system do this switch over? On landing crew report any defects to ground crew for rectification, you land a perfectly serviceable a/c but the not in use AoA sensor had developed a fault , you don't know that ( unless you have the red light upgrade), next crew takes off and oops they have problems because the now in use AoA is faulty, Confusion reigns cant be AoA problem none were reported or even more likely it is the same crew on a multi hop flight so they know it was working. I would expect that system to at least tell them which FCC/AoA was supplying power to controls.
It is quite common for all kinds of systems to switch like that between flights. Usually by weight on wheels. If power is lost, it simply starts with a predetermined default source. If you'd always be using the same input, you'd never notice if the other one went INOP. Suddenly the always used source goes unserviceable and the backup has been unserviceable for ages but was never used so not noticed. As long as this behavior is documented in the FCOM it is absolutely not an issue. And no one simply dismisses a possible source of problems just because the previous crew didn't have any issues.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:27
  #704 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
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UK CAA now issued SD-2019-001

SD-2019-001: Boeing 737-8 "MAX" and Boeing 737-9 "MAX" Limitation of Operations due to a Fatal Accident in Ethiopia on 10 March 2019

This SD is made in the interests of safety of operation and to protect the public following the accident of an Ethiopian Airlines Boeing Model 737-8 "MAX" aircraft on 10 March 2019. External reports are drawing similarities between this accident and Lion Air flight 610 on 29 October 2018 involving the same type of aircraft. Given the similarity of the two accidents, it has been decided that as a precautionary measure that all Boeing 737-8 "MAX" and Boeing 737-9 "MAX" operations in the United Kingdom, whether by UK AOC holders or foreign AOC holders and carriers, should stop until appropriate safeguards are in place.

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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:31
  #705 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
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Originally Posted by Cows getting bigger View Post
UK CAA Statement and associated OSD http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SD2019001.pdf
They are mostly doing it to shield TUI, but nice to see someone had the balls. Specially due to the importance of the future US-UK relations.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:33
  #706 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: UK
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TK595 IST - NKC looks like it's turning around and returning to base so guessing Turkey is next with the grounding

EDIT: all outbound TK flights on the MAX look like they're turned around.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:38
  #707 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by derjodel View Post
They are mostly doing it to shield TUI, but nice to see someone had the balls. Specially due to the importance of the future US-UK relations.
It's a complete inversion of the DC-10 grounding in 1979, when the FAA withdrew its cert but the CAA protested that it was an over-reaction.

Just realised that was nearly 40 years ago, 6 June 1979. Where did the time go?!
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:39
  #708 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Originally Posted by Brake Fan View Post
It's looking like we are witnessing the first aircraft to be killed by social media since the Hindenburg.
My thoughts entirely.

There is also similarity to the Osprey - now the safest rotary flown by the US Military.

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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:39
  #709 (permalink)  
 
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My view is that the UK CAA havenít jumped-the-gun. They have clearly tried to get as much information as possible and either donít have that information or are troubled by some of the responses.

One thing I admire about the UK CAA is that they almost always play with a straight bat; it seems so here.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:40
  #710 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
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but G-TUMB is still flying on. Clearly TUI know what they are doing, but to a casual reader, the CAA directive looks pretty clear.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:40
  #711 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Originally Posted by nebojsar View Post
And what qualification for you is enough for someone to have privilege to step in b737 cockpit?
When I did my 737 type rating some years ago the vastly experienced CFI told us that Boeing's original design philosophy on the type was that it could be safely and efficiently operated by an experienced Captain and a third-world PPL. I think they pretty much succeeded. Of course the P2's experience counts but if he's been properly trained he's more than capable of backing up an experienced Captain who was always assumed to take the controls immediately an emergency occurred, though not necessarily to keep them if the situation warranted that course of action. Captain fly, boy do. It works.

I find it very surprising that anyone on this variant wouldn't have MCAS malfunctions so close to the front of his mind that the slightest extra clank of the trim didn't shock him alert in an instant, grabbing the trim wheel and reaching (or calling) for either Flap1 or the Stab Trim Cutout switches. How anyone on-type could fly 6 long minutes with trim problems and not tumble to the nature of the malfunction simply beggars belief.

For that reason alone I wouldn't be at all surprised if this particular duck turns out to be a goose.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:45
  #712 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sucram View Post
Thats a pretty unfair and sweeping statement
Actually it's a factual statement in the sense that the vast majority of newer commercial pilots have very little hand flying experience in a line environment. SOP for just about every airline globally involves positive rate, gear up, AP on as quickly as possible. As a general rule AP disconnect on landing also occurs very late in the process. The result is that most pilots with no experience prior to the "glass cockpit" era have significantly underdeveloped intuitive capabilities.

Ebbatson (2009) found that pilots who had significant experience flying traditional, non-glass cockpit aircraft, developed robust mental models of performance characteristics during different phases of flight. These heuristics allowed experienced pilots to quickly and accurately predict and anticipate exactly how the aircraft would perform, thus reducing the high processing demands imposed by closed-loop processing. These pilots developed their own schema for the operation of the aircraft based upon experience with power settings, descent profiles, and rules of thumb. They no longer had to perform 14 complex mathematical calculations to determine when to begin a descent; rather they could simply apply the heuristic model for that situation. Less experienced pilots, lack these heuristics and quickly become saturated, resulting in poor aircraft control and planning. Over-dependence on automated systems exacerbates this issue and further inhibits the ability to develop the required mental models for manual flight.

https://scholarworks.sjsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=5108&context=etd_theses



The simple truth is that while the planes themselves are infinitely safer the pilots are not. Obviously that is a harsh blanket statement but the truth is that if you can't practice your craft you won't maintain proficiency.

Last edited by SLFinAZ; 12th Mar 2019 at 14:58.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:49
  #713 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by meleagertoo View Post
When I did my 737 type rating some years ago the vastly experienced CFI told us that Boeing's original design philosophy on the type was that it could be safely and efficiently operated by an experienced Captain and a third-world PPL.
Sure, but the experienced Captains have long since retired and the third world PPLs have upgraded to the left seat. And for that matter the first world PPLs are not much better.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:52
  #714 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
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Not a pilot, but an engineer here.
That the MCAS system was relying solely on one sensor and not cascade to backup sensors or other checkpoint data, too.... well, it almost sounds to me that Boeing went rouge from their philosophy and instead errantly took a page from Airbus' philosophy, trying to fully automate the plane, and half-assed the entire logic and failed miserably. Otherwise, this MCAS system seems criminally designed, not to mention the lack of instruction in their Flight Manual.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 14:54
  #715 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by quentinc View Post
but G-TUMB is still flying on. Clearly TUI know what they are doing, but to a casual reader, the CAA directive looks pretty clear.
Landing will not be denied to aircraft already inbound.
Only those not UK based will turn around as they would not be able to depart again.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:05
  #716 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
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High horses and such

Originally Posted by Escape Velocity View Post
Next, basic airmanship: ...I can handle the airplane all day long without an altimeter or airspeed indicator (in VMC conditions)
Really?
Have you tried?
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:05
  #717 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
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I've got a basic question on the level of training for an MPL. Does the simulator work include/require a demonstrated ability to fly and land on raw data only? Same thing for Captain upgrade for ET?
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:08
  #718 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
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Looks like the Aussies joined the ban
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:12
  #719 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dont Hang Up View Post
Landing will not be denied to aircraft already inbound.
Only those not UK based will turn around as they would not be able to depart again.
TK-LCG has turned back several hours into the flight and it's on it's way back to Istanbul.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 15:14
  #720 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Smythe View Post
Looks like the Aussies joined the ban
Germany as well!
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