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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 11th Mar 2019, 08:23
  #281 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sailvi767 View Post


The pilot has complete control. In the event of a trim runaway you simple disconnect the trim via the provided switch, trim manually and continue the flight. The 737 provides far better indications of a trim issue than any current airliner via the trim wheels.
There is quite a difference between a trim runaway and what seems to happen here.

How do you recognise a trim runaway?
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 08:23
  #282 (permalink)  
 
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From what I understand one condition for the MCAS to work is manual flight. My question is, if the the MCAS starts to trim the nose down, can the AP be still engaged and save the situation?
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 08:25
  #283 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by canyonblue737 View Post
A: the trim disconnect switches found directly on the center pedestal within easy reach will disconnect the ability of the MCAS system from trimming against pilot input.
Yeah, but the cutout switches operate the other way to all the other switches on the aircraft. Boeing switches are up for off, while the stab cutout switches are down for off. In all that confusion, with the stick shaker going of and the trim running away, who is to say that a low-hours pilot would not get confused....?

.
Are you kidding me? Are you flying a 737?
I think that all 737 pilots know this switch goes down instead of up to turn it off.
There is always a superman, who knws everything. But how many times have you operated these switches? I think I have touched them twice in 10 years. Still know which way they operate? And warnings going off all over the place; and the aircraft pitching up and down, possibly violently; and you only have 200 hours on type .... still know which way these switches operate...?

Silver

Last edited by silverstrata; 11th Mar 2019 at 08:35.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 08:25
  #284 (permalink)  
 
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hello,

pilots flying on the new boeing 737 Max come from the 737 Ng and are not used to correcting and monitoring what this MCAS system does§
It's not easy for them as they are supposed to fly on a safe plane
it's absurd to cut off the swith when the MCAS gets bogged down and will order the plane to nose down

Guys from Seattle should come to Toulouse, France to see how auto trim work
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 08:29
  #285 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by airtractor View Post
Gouli, can you explain how you save money by flying closer to a stall/higher angle of Attack?
-Closer to stall = more drag= higher fuel burn= wasting money.

cheers
Do you fly at all?
Have you heard of high speed stall? Mach tuck?
And as someone mentioned, Coffin Corner.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 08:29
  #286 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by zonak View Post


Thank you!!!
A thousand feet of air between the plane and the ground will disappear very quickly if the nose is down. Not sure how that stacks up against the time taken to decide to disable MCAS and executing it.

I must say that if i bought a car where the steering might go wrong under certain conditions and tbe solution was to pull a CB, i would pass
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 08:31
  #287 (permalink)  
 
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My question is, if the the MCAS starts to trim the nose down, can the AP be still engaged and save the situation?
I don’t fly the Max but if it was an NG it would be highly unlikely. First up, you want to be decreasing automation when things start getting away on you, not increasing it but if you did try for whatever reason, the NG wouldn’t take the AP if there was an active control column input from either side. From what I have been reading, the situation would be such that it is unlikely you could organise getting both crew members to release pressure completely while engaging the AP.
Anyway, if the solution to any problem was to engage the AP and watch it recover the aircraft I think many pilots would be contemplating a career change soonish.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 08:35
  #288 (permalink)  
 
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Given that, as we all know, MCAS was implicated in the Lion Air accident, it won't come as any surprise that the answers to many posters' questions about what MCAS is, how it's supposed to work and how its misbehaviour can be mitigated have been discussed (extensively) in that thread.

Worth a read for those who haven't and need to ask the same things. Might save a bit of bandwidth in this one.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 08:38
  #289 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 73qanda View Post
Anyway, if the solution to any problem was to engage the AP and watch it recover the aircraft I think many pilots would be contemplating a career change soonish.
I think he’s talking about the fact that AP engagement disables the MCAS, not trying to do you out of a
job.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 08:43
  #290 (permalink)  
 
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Ethiopan Airlines says via Twitter:

"Senior captain Yared Getachew, who had more than 8,000 flight hours, was in command of the plane.

His first officer, Ahmed Nur Mohammod Nur, had 200 hours of flight time. "
Assuming no typos, is that difference in flight hours very unusual, or is it a case of a relatively new first officer being teamed up with an experienced colleague?
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 08:44
  #291 (permalink)  
 
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WHBM, I realize that you might have some kind of vendetta against them. Ethiopian by all standards is a fairly safe Airline. 1996 was as a result of hijacking. By your logic, United and American are all unsafe airlines because they were hijacked in 2001. The 2010 incident was as a result of pilot error, not any maintenance deficiencies of the airline.

The high foreign passenger count is as a result of a Regional UN conference taking place in Nairobi, with lots of development and foreign aid professionals coming in from Ethiopia (Ethiopia has a significant amount of foreign aid workers. You should probably refrain from disparaging an airline with your distorted opinions.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 08:47
  #292 (permalink)  
 
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RAM has grounded also their 2 x 737 Max (CN-MAX & CN-MAY).... it starts to smell bad

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Old 11th Mar 2019, 08:49
  #293 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by arketip View Post
There is quite a difference between a trim runaway and what seems to happen here.
How do you recognise a trim runaway?
There is this volumous clanking noise going on, as the huge great Titanic trim wheel (taken from the Ju-52) winds its way around. And the controls will need a great deal of pulling for normal flight (something like 50 to 60 kg of force), which is pretty much uncontrollable.

However, if you have the very noisy stick shaker going off (as the Indonesia did), and if the instruments lead you to think you might be stalling (as the Indonesia thought), you are not necessarily know that the stab-trim is trimming.

Trouble-shooting multiple faults is never easy. Which takes priority ? Obviously controlling the perceived stall - that is why the stick shaker is operating. Except it is not a stall, and the most important thing is the trim runnaway - which you might nit even know is happening.

Silver
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 08:50
  #294 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AmuDarya View Post
Ethiopan Airlines says via Twitter:



Assuming no typos, is that difference in flight hours very unusual, or is it a case of a relatively new first officer being teamed up with an experienced colleague?


so what ? Where is the problem ? all the pilots who now have 20,000 flying hours have had a few hours of flying time. the most important is the qualification.
Now if it is a manufacturing and design defect, you can even put the best pilotin the world. the plane will eventually fall to the ground
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 08:50
  #295 (permalink)  
 
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Simultaneous double failure of AOAs and Pitots?
Simultaneous double failure of THS and elevators?
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 08:50
  #296 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 73qanda View Post

I don’t fly the Max but if it was an NG it would be highly unlikely. First up, you want to be decreasing automation when things start getting away on you, not increasing it but if you did try for whatever reason, the NG wouldn’t take the AP if there was an active control column input from either side. From what I have been reading, the situation would be such that it is unlikely you could organise getting both crew members to release pressure completely while engaging the AP.
Anyway, if the solution to any problem was to engage the AP and watch it recover the aircraft I think many pilots would be contemplating a career change soonish.
If correct, and I have no reason to think otherwise, 73qanda has succinctly described what this discussion should be all about. IMHO, MCAS has either been designed by people who don’t have the first clue of the human factors present in such a dynamic occurrence. And/or, they’ve been sitting behind a desk (or computer) for so long that they have lost touch with reality. I mean, someone signed off on the thing. Maybe that’s why in the aftermath of Lion Air, both Boeing and the FAA were conspicuously quiet?
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 08:50
  #297 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Given that, as we all know, MCAS was implicated in the Lion Air accident, it won't come as any surprise that the answers to many posters' questions about what MCAS is, how it's supposed to work and how its misbehaviour can be mitigated have been discussed (extensively) in that thread.

Worth a read for those who haven't and need to ask the same things. Might save a bit of bandwidth in this one.
Sound advice Dave. But since it has already been done to death multiple times in this thread and still ignored then I don't like your chances.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 08:53
  #298 (permalink)  
 
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Lady "aviation analyst" on BBC Breakfast this morning....

"There are no airlines in the UK operating the Max8. Ryanair and Norwegian have them on order but none delivered yet".

Has she not heard of Tui??

Theirs (and others in the Tui grouping) appear to be flying this morning.
Wycombe is online now  
Old 11th Mar 2019, 08:53
  #299 (permalink)  
 
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I know it's a long read, but just for some perspective the 2010 crash of ET409 (737-800) occurred with similarly experienced flt crew and the same airline with the excellent reputation:

The captain had 10,000 hrs - with 180 hrs on type.
The first officer had 673 hrs - with 350 hrs on type.

Reading the report could lead one to conclude that the captain did not have much of an idea about what he was doing on this aircraft and the first officer didn't feel like he was able to correct him.

http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2010/et-b...b100125.en.pdf

I think I would feel more comfortable if they turned on the autopilot sooner...
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 09:02
  #300 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by whitelighter View Post
China has this morning grounded all B737-MAX8 being flown by Chinese airlines - some 97 airframes.

Ethiopian (perhaps with different motivation) have also withdrawn their MAX8 from service

tick tock FAA, tick tock
I'm astonished every single one in existence hasn't been grounded.
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