Atlas Air 767 down/Texas
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Re post 850 from a reliable source.
My thoughts.
Did not fly the 767 however, checking Captain Google images, the TOGA (Go Round) switches (as in most Boeings) are positioned such they require a premeditated, definite decision/action to trigger them.
I suggest it is almost impossible to do this when correctly selecting a flap reposition particularly should one have been properly trained: i.e. when selecting a flap reposition from the Left seat the hand always goes under the pilot flying (F/O's) arm. This prevents the Left seat pilot's arm getting in the way of the Pilot Flying (F/O) use of the thrust levers.
Further the hand/arm would not be anywhere near the TOGA switches.
Had for some reason TOGA had been initiated one would think autothrust would be immediately disconnected to maintain the required flight path/remain in control of the aircraft. Or is the required flight path was not able to be maintained a go round carried out.
This should be a fairly standard procedure which all training would demonstrate.
My thoughts.
Did not fly the 767 however, checking Captain Google images, the TOGA (Go Round) switches (as in most Boeings) are positioned such they require a premeditated, definite decision/action to trigger them.
I suggest it is almost impossible to do this when correctly selecting a flap reposition particularly should one have been properly trained: i.e. when selecting a flap reposition from the Left seat the hand always goes under the pilot flying (F/O's) arm. This prevents the Left seat pilot's arm getting in the way of the Pilot Flying (F/O) use of the thrust levers.
Further the hand/arm would not be anywhere near the TOGA switches.
Had for some reason TOGA had been initiated one would think autothrust would be immediately disconnected to maintain the required flight path/remain in control of the aircraft. Or is the required flight path was not able to be maintained a go round carried out.
This should be a fairly standard procedure which all training would demonstrate.
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The 767 Go-Around switches are in a different position than the one's on the 737NG and 777. The 737NG and 777 are forward of your hand and are activated by your finger tips. On the 767, if you let your throttle hand thumb relax and lower, it's in about the right position to engage the Go-Around switch. I've unintentionally engaged the Go-Around on both designs (767 and 777). It didn't happen on the 737 because the buttons are smaller and harder to move.
Maybe I'm a klutz but things get bumped.
Maybe I'm a klutz but things get bumped.
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Re post 850 from a reliable source.
My thoughts.
Did not fly the 767 however, checking Captain Google images, the TOGA (Go Round) switches (as in most Boeings) are positioned such they require a premeditated, definite decision/action to trigger them.
I suggest it is almost impossible to do this when correctly selecting a flap reposition particularly should one have been properly trained: i.e. when selecting a flap reposition from the Left seat the hand always goes under the pilot flying (F/O's) arm. This prevents the Left seat pilot's arm getting in the way of the Pilot Flying (F/O) use of the thrust levers.
Further the hand/arm would not be anywhere near the TOGA switches.
Had for some reason TOGA had been initiated one would think autothrust would be immediately disconnected to maintain the required flight path/remain in control of the aircraft. Or is the required flight path was not able to be maintained a go round carried out.
This should be a fairly standard procedure which all training would demonstrate.
My thoughts.
Did not fly the 767 however, checking Captain Google images, the TOGA (Go Round) switches (as in most Boeings) are positioned such they require a premeditated, definite decision/action to trigger them.
I suggest it is almost impossible to do this when correctly selecting a flap reposition particularly should one have been properly trained: i.e. when selecting a flap reposition from the Left seat the hand always goes under the pilot flying (F/O's) arm. This prevents the Left seat pilot's arm getting in the way of the Pilot Flying (F/O) use of the thrust levers.
Further the hand/arm would not be anywhere near the TOGA switches.
Had for some reason TOGA had been initiated one would think autothrust would be immediately disconnected to maintain the required flight path/remain in control of the aircraft. Or is the required flight path was not able to be maintained a go round carried out.
This should be a fairly standard procedure which all training would demonstrate.
Where do you get these statements from? Who said there was a standard procedure for moving the flap lever? Just making this up? And also, how do you perform a go around at 6000 feet on a STAR? Do you know the definition of a Go-Around? On a Boeing, if you ever need to stop your descent on an arrival and need to climb back up, the easiest and smoothest way would be to set a higher altitude on the MCP and use Level Change. Unless you are about to hit something, you won't use TOGA at this point.
As far as hitting the TOGA switches accidentally, stranger things have happened, and it is possible.
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Cant see anything new on NTSB site after March .
[/QUOTE]
Here's the text from the report:
" On February 23, 2019, at 1239 central standard time, Atlas Air flight 3591, a Boeing 767-375BCF, N1217A, entered a rapid descent from 6,000 ft and impacted a marshy bay area about 40 miles southeast of George Bush Intercontinental Airport (KIAH), Houston, Texas. The two pilots and one nonrevenue jumpseat pilot were fatally injured. The airplane was destroyed and highly fragmented. The airplane was operated as a Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 121 domestic cargo flight, which originated from Miami International Airport (KMIA), Miami, Florida, and was destined for KIAH."
The report can be found in the " Accident Synopses - by month" page of the NTSB site.
[/QUOTE]
Here's the text from the report:
" On February 23, 2019, at 1239 central standard time, Atlas Air flight 3591, a Boeing 767-375BCF, N1217A, entered a rapid descent from 6,000 ft and impacted a marshy bay area about 40 miles southeast of George Bush Intercontinental Airport (KIAH), Houston, Texas. The two pilots and one nonrevenue jumpseat pilot were fatally injured. The airplane was destroyed and highly fragmented. The airplane was operated as a Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 121 domestic cargo flight, which originated from Miami International Airport (KMIA), Miami, Florida, and was destined for KIAH."
The report can be found in the " Accident Synopses - by month" page of the NTSB site.
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Here you go (it's more or less content-free): https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...=HTML&IType=MA
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Here you go (it's more or less content-free): https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...=HTML&IType=MA
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https://ocw.mit.edu/ans7870/16/16.63...3JF12_A300.pdf
hitting the TOGA accidentally has resulted in crashes and near crashes before as in CI 140 Nagoya accident A300-600
hitting the TOGA accidentally has resulted in crashes and near crashes before as in CI 140 Nagoya accident A300-600
https://ocw.mit.edu/ans7870/16/16.63...3JF12_A300.pdf
hitting the TOGA accidentally has resulted in crashes and near crashes before as in CI 140 Nagoya accident A300-600
hitting the TOGA accidentally has resulted in crashes and near crashes before as in CI 140 Nagoya accident A300-600
I don't recall TOGA being the precipitator. I do recall the screaming call as they fell in a stall of "power Power"
They hit the ground flat with little forward speed
The CI crash in Tapei was involved with too much power, precip a stall on a canceled approach
loma, I know very little about 767: if one accidentally hits TOGA, can not then pull the power back by hand? (Or otherwise disengage it?)
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VanderBurgh confirmed TOGA switch as precipitator in his video that includes runaway stab. You can choose to believe his information or not.
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will have to find the accident report
memory fades but remember they were a bit high on the approach and did late go around with full load sans the fuel burn from Bali and stalled at low altitude into apartments
pilot fatigue was mentioned as a big
factor Power applied too late for successful go around it seems or the AOA too high
the accident happened at night
Thank you for that. Your response leaves me looking at the "leaked" info and more puzzled than before. The implication of that reported sequence is that once a mistaken hit of that switch, TOGA, the Left Seat pilot became inert, both physically and mentally.
I find that hard to believe, and so am quite keen to read the report when it comes out.
(My last areas of professional concentration before leaving aviation for other jobs was training, crew training, human performance, CRM, and human factors).
(Airbubba: I am in no way impugning your cred as a source - I've found your input to be generally solid over the years ... )
I find that hard to believe, and so am quite keen to read the report when it comes out.
(My last areas of professional concentration before leaving aviation for other jobs was training, crew training, human performance, CRM, and human factors).
(Airbubba: I am in no way impugning your cred as a source - I've found your input to be generally solid over the years ... )